[TLD]

There is mixed evidence as to whether Lazerwager has ceased paying entirely, or is still dribbling out a little money here and there.

I’ve had a pending Fed Ex withdrawal there since January 29 for about half my balance. The last completed payout I know of was to a customer for a January 27 request, for three figures. When I talked to Lazerwager yesterday, they first told me the size of my withdrawal is irrelevant to where it is in the queue, however moments later they contradicted that by claiming that smaller withdrawals have sometimes been paid first recently.

Though they claim the problem is with the check processing, there are no reports of Western Union payouts or any other method being received lately either, and they refused to let me switch my payout to Western Union or to make a separate Western Union withdrawal from my remaining balance.

So at this point, either no one is being paid, or perhaps small withdrawals have some slight hope.

The website is still up and they’re still answering the phones (and presumably taking deposits), so for now it looks like they’re taking the Cascade route of remaining in operation and just not paying their customers.

But needless to say, unless this situation changes dramatically, this is not a D+ book. I’ve received nothing but broken promise after broken promise after broken promise.

I have filled out a complaint form, and if SBR is able to contact them or obtain any information—not just about my case but about whether there’s any hope for any of their customers—that would be great.

And of course if some book wants to come in and take over these accounts or do some kind of bailout—always a long shot—that would be most welcome.

[20Four7]

They were cold calling me large before superbowl, I can't say I'm surprised. I presently have a zero balance there so that's fine for me. I believe they are the sexy wagers people and they did pay out before shutting their doors on that site.

[bigboydan]

I've heard the rumors of the slow pays over the course of the last month or so, and it doesn't sound to promising at all. It might be possible that it's a processing issue of some type, but thats just total speculation on my part and probably not the reason.

Now from what I do remember Lazerwager did open a new book called IWagerBig earlier this month. So if they won't let you change your withdraw option over to a western union cashout at all. Then you might want to see if it's possible to do a book-to-book transfer in order to find out exactly where you money really stands sorta speak.


correct 24/7, SexyWagers paid everyone before they closed up shop.

[frostno98]

D+ books struggling after it's first football is not too encouraging! Although D- sportsbook.com had a lot of questionable stealing of certain individuals money, and slow pay, I would still have more faith in them than Lazerwager.

[TLD]

Looks like I’m being stiffed for a lot of money by this joint.

I’d like to know if SBR has attempted to contact them or looked into this situation at all. Is there any reason to think it is a temporary processing issue and they will ultimately pay, or is the place toast?

[bigboydan]

I would be more to happy to answer your questions and all TLD, however I don't know the answers.

What I did do is send Mr.Dozer an email about this. So please allow SBR some time to look into this matter a little more in depth.

[TLD]

Thanks Dan.

[Bill Dozer]

TLD,

We hope to meet with Lazer tomorrow. They say they are having processing problems but this isn't the typical case where they can't send a check. They say the problem is moving money to them to then process to you meaning they don't have it. There is no timeframe or willingness to transfer to other CR books.

This is their second go around after Sexywagers. The operations PPH, which they have always said was their core business, will take a hit if they don't sort this out.

[TLD]

Originally Posted by Bill Dozer

TLD,

We hope to meet with Lazer tomorrow. They say they are having processing problems but this isn't the typical case where they can't send a check. They say the problem is moving money to them to then process to you meaning they don't have it. There is no timeframe or willingness to transfer to other CR books.

This is their second go around after Sexywagers. The operations PPH, which they have always said was their core business, will take a hit if they don't sort this out.

Thanks for the response, and I hope you’re able to communicate with them tomorrow.

I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying though, or more specifically, I got a little crossed up with the referents of “they” and “them.”

Does “They say the problem is moving money to them to then process to you meaning they don't have it” mean Lazerwager has the money but hasn’t been able to get it to the processor, of are you saying Lazerwager doesn’t have the money?

Also, for what it’s worth, they don’t pay by check. I don’t know how much more than that I’m supposed to say publicly, but contact me if you want to talk about that aspect of things.

[Santo]

My guess is they're saying they are owed by credit players, and the problem is getting the money from them to their bank account to then process out to post-up players (something reminiscent of Cascade)

[TLD]

No change with these crooks. Still operating and taking deposits, but not paying out. As of today they’re saying “at least two weeks” before they can resume payouts, but their story changes every time you talk to them. All that remains consistent is that it’s always lies.

Interesting that they went the route of being a deposit only book, while some books like Big Juicy Odds just go under all at once and disappear with the money. Not sure what all plays into the costs and benefits calculations of these books in deciding which path is better.

I know this sounds like a ridiculous question, but has anybody ever had any success going through legal or governmental channels when an offshore book steals from you? My first instinct of course when anyone suggests something like that in the forums is to shake my head at how naïve they are, but then I remember an experience I myself had long ago.

In the 1990s, long before I knew of these forums or really anything about the offshore world beyond what I’d read in a few ads in magazines and such, I had two or three accounts with maybe $500-$1,000 each in them. (I was pretty much a small, recreational player.) One of the accounts was at ESB, which—though I didn’t know it at the time—was one of the most notorious scam books. It would have been the poster child for F books if SBR had existed then.

Anyway, they decided not to send me my money when I requested a withdrawal, for no reason at all except that they could. I spent I think about two months calling three to four times a week for an explanation of why my withdrawal wasn’t being processed, and every time I was told that only a manager could address that issue, and unfortunately they were all in a meeting, at lunch, had left for the day, etc.

I saw on their website that they were located in the Caribbean. (Jamaica maybe? It’s been so long, I don’t remember the details any more.) So, not knowing what else to do, I started calling government agencies in that country that sounded like they might have something to do with gaming, or at least with regulating businesses in general. I eventually got hold of someone who told me in broken English whom I should write to about my problem. I remember his title was “Senator,” but I don’t remember anything more than that, or why she’d suggested him in particular. But she gave me his office address, so I wrote a detailed letter of all that had transpired between me and ESB, urging them to take some kind of action against a crooked business in their jurisdiction robbing their customers.

About a week later I actually get a call from the owner of ESB, one of the Atiyehs (Dennis, I believe). He’s very apologetic, gives me some double talk story about why there had been a problem with my withdrawal, and promises to take care of it immediately. The interesting thing is, as we’re talking, I can hear he’s kind of reading through some notes or something about my situation. And then I recognized some specific phrases that had been in my letter to the Senator, but that I had never used in any direct communication with ESB. So I knew my letter had been forwarded to him. Clearly the Senator had provided my letter to ESB, probably with some kind of prodding to look into the matter and take care of it.

I got the check for my full balance a few days later, along with a letter of apology from Dennis and a note indicating they’d put a free $200 (I think it was $200) in my account. I ran that up to about $1,000, requested a withdrawal for the full amount, got it without a hitch, and never played there again.

But just in thinking back on that, here’s a book that’s among the worst stiff books in the history of offshore, in one of the countries we’re always told has no regulation of sportsbooks, and just by sending a letter to the government I got paid in full and then some.

Was that just a total fluke? Has anyone else ever gotten anywhere doing something like that? I don’t know how you’d do it in a case like Big Juicy Odds where they shut down entirely, but Lazerwager is more like ESB—still around and taking deposits, but just not paying. Are there any legal or governmental channels to pressure a Lazerwager or Cascade type book that’s still in operation?

[20Four7]

Lazer told me on the phone when they called the other night they are paying out and whoever said they aren't is lying. I mentioned the Rx yanking them as a sponsor and Ian (I beleive that was his name) said it's the internet what do you want. Not that I"m advocating posting up with them.

As TLD says they are lying through their teeth right now so beware.

[imgv94]

This place is a trip..

When I requested a w/d from them in Jan, they claimed to of sent me a cashiers check but instead when I received the package it was two money orders one from safeway the other from western union. Both unsigned too.

[TLD]

Originally Posted by imgv94

This place is a trip..

When I requested a w/d from them in Jan, they claimed to of sent me a cashiers check but instead when I received the package it was two money orders one from safeway the other from western union. Both unsigned too.

Yep. All my payouts (back when they were paying) were blank money orders and cash, never a check. That’s why I don’t get the “processor” excuse. Evidently their only “processing” was they had someone in the U.S. (which could have been the owner or that tout Iron Horse—AKA “Carlo”—that they work with) walk into a Post Office or a Safeway and buy some money orders, or stuff some cash in an envelope. It’s not like there was some third party with a bank account that got closed or confiscated or anything.

[imgv94]

Yeah.. Weird operation they got going there.

I wish you the best of luck in this matter, I suggest have theRx look into this matter too. Nothing against SBR but theRx seems to help out a lot faster with things like this.

But it always depends on the particular situation. GL sir

[TLD]

Thanks. I’ve already informed them, and am posting in the thread they have going on about it over there. Also have e-mailed with the EOG folks about it. And of course earlier I sent my info to Bill Dozer.

So if somehow there’s some news or someone gets any ideas about how to pressure them or possible bailouts, etc., hopefully I’ll be told. But I pretty much wrote it off awhile back, so anything I get now would be a bonus. My first stiff since all the way back to Aces Gold, and this one’s a doozy (at least relative to my stakes).

I was going to take some time off anyway because I’m disgusted with what offshore has become in recent times. This just means I’m substantially more disgusted and will step away for a longer period. There’s a chance it’ll be a “straw that broke the camel’s back” experience and I won’t come back at all (at more than a recreational level), but I certainly haven’t made any determination like that yet. More likely I’ll just cool it for a few months.

[bigboydan]

I can't believe you actually received a check from ESB TLD. They were even worse than Cascade is these days.

[TLD]

Originally Posted by bigboydan

I can't believe you actually received a check from ESB TLD. They were even worse than Cascade is these days.

Yeah, at the time I had no idea how unusual that was. But somehow by writing to their government I not only got paid but got some extra. I guess I should be glad there were no forums then, at least that I was aware of. If I’d asked first about contacting the government, I can imagine the laughs that would have generated. “Government?! Regulation?! In one of those banana republics? Stop it, you’re killing me here!”

It makes me wonder though if there are things like that that people could at least try and would sometimes work, but we don’t bother because it’s just “common knowledge” that it would be futile.

[TLD]

Lazerwager is still in operation taking deposits, and not paying withdrawals. I called today and they wouldn’t even hazard a guess as to when payouts would resume. Just some time in the indefinite future.

Would a further downgrade be in order? I see they are still at D- (with their sister book “IWagerBig” at D+). I think of that more as Sportsbook.com territory—crooked books that blatantly steal from a few select players here and there but otherwise pay out to the vast majority of their customers. Lazerwager has instead become a Cascade—a book that hasn’t shut down but continues in operation as “deposit-only.” So it seems like they should be graded maybe a level below the Sportsbook.com types.

Perhaps one last attempt by SBR to communicate with them, and if nothing satisfactory comes of that, drop them to F+ or F?

[bigboydan]

I would agree that they are in "Cascade mode" (deposit only) these days. However, I feel the other things you touched base on would be best answered by the gentlemen in the SBR offices.

[pokerislife]

we are now following up as to any connection as to the Absolute Poker scammers and Lazerwager scammers thanks to this story in gambling991. We poker players were under the impression that a company called Betruss was the sportsbook funded with the absconded funds. Could it have been Lazerewager. It appears to be a picture of Carlo the director of Lazerwager with Allen GRimaldi the guy who stole our money at Absolute Poker....coincindence...I think not....only 60 Minutes might know for sure at this point...

http://www.gambling911.com/Clooney-G...er-040908.html

[TLD]

Still wondering why this scam outfit isn’t rated even lower. They remain in operation taking deposits and allowing no withdrawals.

Pokerislife, I have no further information to help you in your inquiry, but if you find anything out that could be relevant to our getting back our stolen money, or if you’re putting together a list of Lazerwager victims and amounts or anything, please post here or PM me.

I noticed in another thread there were some sort of negotiations going on concerning a Big Juicy Odds bailout, but that so far the only thing that had materialized was a not very attractive bailout requiring an additional post up. Is any such effort being made for the Lazerwager victims, or are we ancient history and everyone’s moved on?

If anyone has any thoughts on what those of us who were stiffed could do to put pressure on these crooks, or how we could put ourselves in line for some form of bailout, please post.

[frostno98]

Originally Posted by TLD

Still wondering why this scam outfit isn’t rated even lower. They remain in operation taking deposits and allowing no withdrawals.

Pokerislife, I have no further information to help you in your inquiry, but if you find anything out that could be relevant to our getting back our stolen money, or if you’re putting together a list of Lazerwager victims and amounts or anything, please post here or PM me.

I noticed in another thread there were some sort of negotiations going on concerning a Big Juicy Odds bailout, but that so far the only thing that had materialized was a not very attractive bailout requiring an additional post up. Is any such effort being made for the Lazerwager victims, or are we ancient history and everyone’s moved on?

If anyone has any thoughts on what those of us who were stiffed could do to put pressure on these crooks, or how we could put ourselves in line for some form of bailout, please post.

I mean I don't f@cking get it, how are these guys rated D- the same as sportsbook.com, at least sportsbook are still paying out every week.

[Bill Dozer]

Originally Posted by TLD

Still wondering why this scam outfit isn’t rated even lower. They remain in operation taking deposits and allowing no withdrawals.

Pokerislife, I have no further information to help you in your inquiry, but if you find anything out that could be relevant to our getting back our stolen money, or if you’re putting together a list of Lazerwager victims and amounts or anything, please post here or PM me.

I noticed in another thread there were some sort of negotiations going on concerning a Big Juicy Odds bailout, but that so far the only thing that had materialized was a not very attractive bailout requiring an additional post up. Is any such effort being made for the Lazerwager victims, or are we ancient history and everyone’s moved on?

If anyone has any thoughts on what those of us who were stiffed could do to put pressure on these crooks, or how we could put ourselves in line for some form of bailout, please post.

TLD,

On 2/29 our only update was:

SBR visits lazerwager (SBR rating D-) office to discuss withdrawal issues
The sportsbook's management tells SBR that a single credit card processor, which has taken the majority of its deposits, is refusing to release the funds to the book and hasn't done so since January 15th. Lazer tells SBR that if the credit card processor does not release the funds they will invest more money in the book and a best case scenario would be some players receiving payment in early April. SBR asked lazerwager the obvious question. Why would they not save their reputation and the players from waiting by funding the business now since players will purportedly be paid regardless? The manager we spoke with was unable to address this question on behalf of its anonymous "ownership." Players should be concerned due to the fact that the book is unable or unwilling to pay, making this more than a processing issue. lazerwager is currently still taking deposits from new players. SBR estimates the debt to Lazer users to be just over $120,000.

They continued to market and we issued a scam alert on 3/22. It's now coming into late April and they are still claiming they are waiting for "the big wire." As expected, they are trying to stall and market their way through this and get some deposits to work with. Will they eventually cough it up to save their PPH? We don't know but the odds have worsened for the player. They have been downgraded to F.

[Bill Dozer]

Originally Posted by frostno98

I mean I don't f@cking get it, how are these guys rated D- the same as sportsbook.com, at least sportsbook are still paying out every week.

Sportsbook.com has stolen much more than LazerWager owes. One poster here is owed more alone. The difference might be that Sportsbook pays the profitable guys and plays stupid.

As we have said in the past, a player knows not to join a book they see on the blacklist whether it's D- or F. In this case the rating shows the likelihood of getting paid vs. helping someone make the decision, to play or not to play.

[TLD]

Originally Posted by Bill Dozer

TLD,

On 2/29 our only update was:

SBR visits lazerwager (SBR rating D-) office to discuss withdrawal issues
The sportsbook's management tells SBR that a single credit card processor, which has taken the majority of its deposits, is refusing to release the funds to the book and hasn't done so since January 15th. Lazer tells SBR that if the credit card processor does not release the funds they will invest more money in the book and a best case scenario would be some players receiving payment in early April. SBR asked lazerwager the obvious question. Why would they not save their reputation and the players from waiting by funding the business now since players will purportedly be paid regardless? The manager we spoke with was unable to address this question on behalf of its anonymous "ownership." Players should be concerned due to the fact that the book is unable or unwilling to pay, making this more than a processing issue. lazerwager is currently still taking deposits from new players. SBR estimates the debt to Lazer users to be just over $120,000.

They continued to market and we issued a scam alert on 3/22. It's now coming into late April and they are still claiming they are waiting for "the big wire." As expected, they are trying to stall and market their way through this and get some deposits to work with. Will they eventually cough it up to save their PPH? We don't know but the odds have worsened for the player. They have been downgraded to F.

OK, thanks for the update.

If anyone has any news, suggestions, bailout possibilities, etc. in the future relevant to Lazerwager victims, please post or contact me. Thanks.

I remember hearing that Sexy Wagers was Sinsation’s sportsbook, and Sinsation remains a going concern (adult movies, etc.) in the U.S. If Lazerwager was just a new name for Sexy Wagers in effect, is there any hope of pressuring Sinsation directly to get our money? Or is there no connection with Lazerwager after all?

[TLD]

Originally Posted by Bill Dozer

Sportsbook.com has stolen much more than LazerWager owes. One poster here is owed more alone. The difference might be that Sportsbook pays the profitable guys and plays stupid.

As we have said in the past, a player knows not to join a book they see on the blacklist whether it's D- or F. In this case the rating shows the likelihood of getting paid vs. helping someone make the decision, to play or not to play.

With all due respect, there’s a huge difference between an out-and-out scam, deposit-only book, and a family of books that honor, say, 97% of their obligations and just look for gray areas to steal from the 3% of players they fear will beat them in the long run.

If someone insisted they had to deposit to and play at either Lazerwager or Sportsbook.com, and they asked me which I’d recommend, it’s not even a close call.

It’s risky to send money to a book that has proven itself willing and able to steal from a small portion of its players. It’s beyond “risky” to send money to a “book” that’s basically the equivalent of one of those Nigerian e-mail scams at this point.

[Bill Dozer]

Originally Posted by TLD

OK, thanks for the update.

If anyone has any news, suggestions, bailout possibilities, etc. in the future relevant to Lazerwager victims, please post or contact me. Thanks.

I remember hearing that Sexy Wagers was Sinsation’s sportsbook, and Sinsation remains a going concern (adult movies, etc.) in the U.S. If Lazerwager was just a new name for Sexy Wagers in effect, is there any hope of pressuring Sinsation directly to get our money? Or is there no connection with Lazerwager after all?

Depends on who you ask but yes, overlapping principals. The same goes for Evolution. They make more in a few months than this debt so there was some actual hope that they would fold Lazer up like Sexy and call it a day on another mismanaged brand.

[TLD]

Originally Posted by Bill Dozer

Depends on who you ask but yes, overlapping principals. The same goes for Evolution. They make more in a few months than this debt so there was some actual hope that they would fold Lazer up like Sexy and call it a day on another mismanaged brand.

Hmm.

Is there anything Lazerwager victims should be doing to use these (possible) connections in their favor?

[Bill Dozer]

Originally Posted by TLD

With all due respect, there’s a huge difference between an out-and-out scam, deposit-only book, and a family of books that honor, say, 97% of their obligations and just look for gray areas to steal from the 3% of players they fear will beat them in the long run.

If someone insisted they had to deposit to and play at either Lazerwager or Sportsbook.com, and they asked me which I’d recommend, it’s not even a close call.

It’s risky to send money to a book that has proven itself willing and able to steal from a small portion of its players. It’s beyond “risky” to send money to a “book” that’s basically the equivalent of one of those Nigerian e-mail scams at this point.

That's what the BOS players said about their D rating. They pay most people... until they don't.

This is always a fuitless debate. As I have said it is not a science of stiffs. There is no mathematical equation for, of the people who got screwed, who is more screwed? The players who got their deposits stolen at Sportsbook.com like your chances better than theirs and so do we. SBR could make a case that players who fall into Sportsbook.com need the warning more than sportsbook forum players. It's an apples and oranges kind of deal and a letter rating alone isn't going to tell the story.

[TLD]

Originally Posted by Bill Dozer

That's what the BOS players said about their D rating. They pay most people... until they don't.

This is always a fuitless debate. As I have said it is not a science of stiffs. There is no mathematical equation for, of the people who got screwed, who is more screwed? The players who got their deposits stolen at Sportsbook.com like your chances better than theirs and so do we. SBR could make a case that players who fall into Sportsbook.com need the warning more than sportsbook forum players. It's an apples and oranges kind of deal and a letter rating alone isn't going to tell the story.

I understand.

I would say Sportsbook.com = pre-Carruthers arrest BOS. Lazerwager = post-Carruthers arrest BOS.

The BOS that went under and stiffed everyone has a worse reputation and a lower grade—correctly—then the BOS that stiffed select customers here and there.

Both scum, but substantially different degrees of risk (if current BOS were hypothetically still taking deposits).

[Doug]

I'm not owed, but I wonder if any bailout will materialize, once the plug is pulled ?

They would seem hard to get now, maybe CRIS/Bookmaker ?

[Bill Dozer]

Bookmaker would be crediting players they already have with free money. Maybe theRX would work something out like TOW did since the balance is so low.

We still hope you guys make it out of there with them wanting to avoid the SCAM label settling in on Evo.

[pokerislife]

Pokerislife, I have no further information to help you in your inquiry, but if you find anything out that could be relevant to our getting back our stolen money, or if you’re putting together a list of Lazerwager victims and amounts or anything, please post here or PM me.

All i can say at this point is that 60 Minutes crew investigating Absolute Poker has taken an interest in this Lazerwager situation due to the Carlo/Grimard connection originally reported by gambling911, and another story may come out of it, however I was informed that there appears to be no connection to Lazerwager at the corporate level according to Absolute insiders. But they also claimed there was no fraud going on either to us.... so the connection is strictly regarding Grimard/lazerwager/betruss ...and where the money is. Steve Kroft is the lead reporter and if you want to send him some info send to 60m@cbsnews.com subject Steve Kroft he would love to hear from you They also are looking for the address of Lazerwager. Can anyone help?

[Bill Dozer]

Here are pictures of their office Office Photos: SexyWagers, CasinoVIP, BetGES, BetRDS