[sam b.]

I posted this last week in another thread. I was waiting to give it its own thread, but I have not heard back from SBR and BetOnline has graded it a loser...

I am having a major wager dispute with this book now. They are saying my future bet on Syracuse to win the Big East Championship (made in November) was actually for the Big East Tournament. I have been battling them all week and have filed a formal complaint with SBR, but haven't reached a resolution as of yet. It is very frustrating. Here is a copy of the email I sent to Bill Dozer. I'm sure he is working on it. What do you guys think? I hope my tone is not too harsh, but I feel they are completely wrong here...

>>Hi Bill. I filed a formal complaint yesterday about a wager dispute at BetOnline. This morning I called the Operations Manager at The Greek and he confirmed you were the right people to handle it. It has been over 24 hours and I haven't heard back from SBR. I am also expecting a call from the Director of Wagering at BetOnline, and haven't heard from him either.

I have done some more research and have more evidence that something fishy is going on over there. A friend of mine is having the same problem as I. He bets at a site called MVP Club Pro, which offers the EXACT same wagers and the EXACT same odds as BetOnline. Clearly it is an affiliate or credit shop for BetOnline.

Anyway, he said that on his wager detail page, there is an "event date." When he printed his wager detail in February, the event date was 3/1/2010, which is BEFORE the conference tournament. Now, when he looks at his pending wager, the event date has been changed to 3/14/2010, which is AFTER the conference tournament.

It seems to me as though they don't want to pay this bet. The Operations Manager at The Greek concurred with my sentiment. For all of the reasons described on my complaint, the wager was clearly for the regular season. This latest evidence now suggests the management at BetOnline knew it was for the regular season but then changed it when they decided they didn't want to pay.

BetOnline is a B+ rated book, so I hope I am wrong about the intentional changing of the event date. Either way I am still hoping you can help get me paid.

If you haven't seen this already, please see below complaint filed with SBR yesterday.

Thanks!

Date/Time: 03/10/2010 09:44 AM
Sportsbook: BetOnline
Account #:
Type: **_CFWagerDispute_**
E-mail Address:
Alt Contact:
Name of Account Holder:
Forwarding Sportsbook Email: Yes
Authorize to Disclose Dispute Info: Yes
Forum Screen Name to Create:
Description: I bet Syracuse to win the Big East conference championship in November. I made similar wagers at several books all within a day or two of each other. BetOnline is now saying the wager was for the Big East conference TOURNAMENT champion. I feel they are trying to get out of paying the bet.

The bet ticket is simply worded "Conferences - To win the Big East Conference Championship - Syracuse +1200." No mention of a tournament whatsoever.

Some things to consider:

I have never heard of a book offering odds on a NCAA conference tournament in November.

The proposition came off the board right before regular season conference play began.

At the same time they offered odds to win the Big East, Pac-10, Big Ten, etc., they also offered odds to win the SEC East and SEC West divisions. Those are determined during regular season conference play, with the tie-breaker being who is the #1 seed in the tournament. Why would some bets offered at the same time be for the regular season and some bets be for the conference tournament? In November??

SBR A+ rated books like The Greek have already graded the wager as a winner. Note that the wager was worded EXACTLY the same by The Greek. I cut and pasted the info from my graded wagers page at The Greek and emailed it to BetOnline.

Finally, if the bet in November was truly for the conference tournament, why is it worded differently now if you actually bet the conference tournament futures at BetOnline?

I spent at least 2 hours on the phone with them between yesterday and today. I spoke with at least 5 different people there, ranging from Wagering to Account Services to Claims.

JR from Account Services said they were going to turn in all of the facts to their Director of Wagering and he will make a final decision. Today I received a call from Erica in Claims that the final decision was to leave the bet pending.

I feel that I am 100% correct here and I cannot accept their decision. It is CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that when the wager was offered in November it was for the regular season championship. Teams hang banners in their gyms for regular season championships, not conference tournament championships. My research indicates that possibly they are under new management now and perhaps this fact was not conveyed to the new team that took over.

Thank you for your help.

[sam b.]

Below is my ticket from the Greek. If I had access to years of sportsbooks' archives, I could produce years of winning and losing tickets that were graded on the regular season conference champion, NOT the winner of the tournament. 100% of the time it has been this way. Why is it different this year?

For those who want to contribute, I want to know if anyone in the past has ever made a basketball conference championship wager before conference play began and had the tournament determine the outcome. Thanks fellas.

Here is my wager from The Greek. Notice it is worded the same as it is worded at BOL. This was graded a full week before Ohio St. won the Big Ten tournament.

Nov 20 1:19am Basketball - Winner 200.00 to win 1000.00 1000.00
1. Basketball Futures - 2009 - 10 NCAA Conference Championship
Big 10 Conference
Team to win the Big Ten Conference Championship
Ohio State (+500) [winner]

[robertg]

sounds like you have a case. i'd be interested to hear the books take on this, doesn't seem like they could have a defense.

[sam b.]

What is the time frame for getting a response here? It has been over 11 days since I made my complaint and have yet to get a response. At least I would like acknowledgment that my complaint was received.

[iceminers26]

betonline sucks, get the **** out there

[BET THE HOOK]

betonline is a shit book. Hope you get paid.

[mtneer1212]

Did they pay the West Virginia winners? Just curious.

[relaaxx]

hope you get paid. glad i do not play there.

[Thremp]

So you bet a tourney outcome in Nov and not a regular season title? Seems like they're cheating you.

[patswin]

I think you have a good case here

keep us updated on your progress

[SBR Lou]

Sam,

Thanks for laying out your case so clearly, including the wording of the ticket. Sounds like a succession of errors were made by the wagering mgr's you spoke to, I'd expect BetOnline to straighten this out based on the information supplied.

[mtneer1212]

Originally Posted by CrazyLou

Sam,

Thanks for laying out your case so clearly, including the wording of the ticket. Sounds like a succession of errors were made by the wagering mgr's you spoke to, I'd expect BetOnline to straighten this out based on the information supplied.

Lou,
I agree that a succession of errors were made, but if the dates were changed on the wager, that is a pretty egregious act. I really thought that BetOnline was a real good entry into the market at first, but after my initial deposit there a while back, I have not returned because of stories like this. I almost redeposited before March Madness...... but decided to go to BetPhoenix because I'm just not comfortable with BetOnline.

[skrtelfan]

Originally Posted by CrazyLou

Sam,

Thanks for laying out your case so clearly, including the wording of the ticket. Sounds like a succession of errors were made by the wagering mgr's you spoke to, I'd expect BetOnline to straighten this out based on the information supplied.

Except that he "laid out his case so clearly" about 2 weeks ago and you guys never bothered to respond to the complaint. The fact that they changed the wording of the ticket retroactively should make this case a slam dunk.

[Peep]

The plot thickens.

Now there are claims a Betonline sister book is changing dates on tickets to avoid paying out futures. How low can these books go?

I have done some more research and have more evidence that something fishy is going on over there. A friend of mine is having the same problem as I. He bets at a site called MVP Club Pro, which offers the EXACT same wagers and the EXACT same odds as BetOnline. Clearly it is an affiliate or credit shop for BetOnline.

Anyway, he said that on his wager detail page, there is an "event date." When he printed his wager detail in February, the event date was 3/1/2010, which is BEFORE the conference tournament. Now, when he looks at his pending wager, the event date has been changed to 3/14/2010, which is AFTER the conference tournament.

[Speed Kills]

I am in the identical situation.

Gentlemen,

I would welcome your opinions on the following wager dispute. The dispute involves online book, BetOnLine.com (BOL). As an initial matter, I have been using this book for quite some time without incident. The following dispute is my first issue with this particular book.

On November 9, 2009, prior to the start of the college basketball season, I placed the following two future/proposition wagers believing that each was with respect to the regular season.

#1 - Tennessee to win the SEC East Conference Championship; and
#2 - California to win the PAC 10 Conference Championship.

The wagers were phrased precisely in the manner that I have reproduced them above. Following the conclusion of regular season play, it was my assumption that wager #1 would be graded as a loss as Tennessee failed to win the SEC East (Kentucky was 1st and Vanderbilt was 2nd). The wager was, in fact, correctly graded as a loss. To my surprise, however, wager #2 was not yet graded. When I contacted BOL to inquire why the California wager was not graded as a win, I was told that the wager was premised on California being declared the PAC 10 Tournament Champion.

I vehemently protested, and asserted that obviously these two wagers were based on the regular season for the following reasons: (1) if the wager had been premised on winning the tournament championship (as BOL insists), the wager would have explicitly stated “Conference Tournament Champion,” as the regular season and tournament championship are two entirely different animals; (2) there is no such thing as an “SEC East tournament championship” so obviously the wagers were meant for the regular season; and (3) sportsbooks simply don’t put preseason numbers out on conference tournaments without having any idea of seeding – do they?

I have been contesting this issue with BOL all week, and was hoping that Cal would have just won the conference tournament, and the issue would have been moot. With Washington defeating Cal last night, however, the wager has been officially graded as a loss, and I feel that I have been cheated. Do I have a valid argument? If I am way off base here, please advise.

Thanks again for your opinions.

[Tomato]

Originally Posted by Speed Kills

The wagers were phrased precisely in the manner that I have reproduced them above. Following the conclusion of regular season play, it was my assumption that wager #1 would be graded as a loss as Tennessee failed to win the SEC East (Kentucky was 1st and Vanderbilt was 2nd). The wager was, in fact, correctly graded as a loss. To my surprise, however, wager #2 was not yet graded. When I contacted BOL to inquire why the California wager was not graded as a win, I was told that the wager was premised on California being declared the PAC 10 Tournament Champion.

If this is true they 100% owe you money.

[Dank_Fire]

Where is that guy from BetOnline.....Alex is his name i think???

[BetOnline]

He's here.. and I have been following this and dealing with it behind the scenes.

Aside from this player, we've had ZERO others complain--and we had plenty of others on the bet.

I'll look into it, and these other allegations, and get back to you.

Alex

[Patrick McIrish]

Anything other than immediate full payment and an apology would be horrific.


John, B+? Seriously?

[skrtelfan]

Originally Posted by BetOnline

He's here.. and I have been following this and dealing with it behind the scenes.

Aside from this player, we've had ZERO others complain--and we had plenty of others on the bet.

I'll look into it, and these other allegations, and get back to you.

How could something this simple possibly take 2 weeks to resolve? The two elements that make this a slam dunk in favor of the player are that:

1) The SEC lines specifically mentioned the two SEC divisions, which are regular season titles. It makes absolutely no sense that you'd offer odds on several conferences where only the SEC was a regular season bet and the others were conference tournament bets.

2) You changed the wording on the bet midstream after he'd placed it.

Unless the player is paid ASAP and given an apology for all of his troubles, there's no way in hell I'd ever play at your book.

[sam b.]

Originally Posted by BetOnline

He's here.. and I have been following this and dealing with it behind the scenes.

Aside from this player, we've had ZERO others complain--and we had plenty of others on the bet.

I'll look into it, and these other allegations, and get back to you.

Alex

Thank you for looking into this.

Alex, the ONLY players you would hear from are the bettors that backed Syracuse to win the Big East and California to win the Pac-10. There is another player in this very thread complaining about his California bet. There is another player on the LVA Sports forum that had Syracuse as well, but he said that his bet was too small for it to be worth his time to complain. Unfortunately, that is not the case for me.

The Big Ten champion and conference winner were the same team (Ohio St), so you wouldn't get any complaints from those bettors. The ACC champion and conference tournament winner were the same team (Duke), so those bettors wouldn't complain either. Likewise for the Big 12 (Kansas). The SEC futures were based on winners of the divisions, so there is nothing to complain about there. That covers all of the 6 major conferences on which these futures were offered.

Again, the only people who have a complaint here are Syracuse Big East bettors and California Pac-10 bettors. The schools that won the conference championships, but lost the conference tournament. Maybe that explains why you are getting so few complaints.

Glad to see this is finally being looked at.

Sam

[HedgeHog]

Originally Posted by BetOnline

He's here.. and I have been following this and dealing with it behind the scenes.

Aside from this player, we've had ZERO others complain--and we had plenty of others on the bet.

I'll look into it, and these other allegations, and get back to you.

Alex

What's to look into--pay the Syracuse and Cal bettors for their winning bets. (I'll take Sportsbook ripoffs for $1000, Alex)

[BetOnline]

Yeah, some guys say it's a slam dunk on our side as well in some forums; this is what happens when smart guys (this player is smart, my lines guy is as well) bump heads.

Here's our position, other sites and banners in gyms aside:

The player bet "To win the Big East Conference
Championship" on his ticket.

As Syracuse, according to BigEast.org, "clinched regular season title," they also "clinched bye to Big East Championship Quarterfinal."

In BigEast.org's schedule, you can see that Syracuse played in the "BIG EAST Men's Basketball Championship" on Thu, Mar 11 and lost 84 to 91 against Georgetown.


The Orangemen played in, but did not win, "the Big East Conference Championship" hence the bet is graded as a loss.

[Peep]

Betonline.

Are you now claiming that you set up all your other conference bets as regular season champs, and just the Big East as Playoff champs?

[tomcowley]

Originally Posted by BetOnline

Yeah, some guys say it's a slam dunk on our side as well in some forums; this is what happens when smart guys (this player is smart, my lines guy is as well) bump heads.

Here's our position, other sites and banners in gyms aside:

The player bet "To win the Big East Conference
Championship" on his ticket.

As Syracuse, according to BigEast.org, "clinched regular season title," they also "clinched bye to Big East Championship Quarterfinal."

In BigEast.org's schedule, you can see that Syracuse played in the "BIG EAST Men's Basketball Championship" on Thu, Mar 11 and lost 84 to 91 against Georgetown.


The Orangemen played in, but did not win, "the Big East Conference Championship" hence the bet is graded as a loss.

You stupid oysters offered the SEC East and West with the exact same wording- obviously regular season bets. Next time, try reading what you copy off Greek. The only thing more pathetic than your bullshit weaseling is going to be Dozer fellating you to keep his cash cow happy. I'll offer up to 100 SBR points (total) at +100 that SBR finds in favor of BoL, even though Ray Charles can see they're worse than incompetent. Post if you want the action (I get SBR finding in favor of BoL, you get SBR doing the right thing and getting these players paid).

If you actually read.. oh, I dunno, the Big East website at http://www.bigeast.org/ViewArticle.d...ATCLID=1583916 you can see that they consider Syracuse the regular season champion.. not just a #1 seed in a tournament, the actual regular season CHAMPION. Just like the SEC East/West regular season CHAMPIONS.

[Peep]

Oh, and maybe you want to comment on the event date too Alex.

The one that was originally set (when the man made the bet) as one that was before the playoffs?

When he printed his wager detail in February, the event date was 3/1/2010, which is BEFORE the conference tournament. Now, when he looks at his pending wager, the event date has been changed to 3/14/2010, which is AFTER the conference tournament.

And I'll take your bet for 100 points Tom.

I'll bet 100 that SBR finds in favor of the player. This one is blantant, with a smoking gun in the changed bet date to seal the deal.

We on for 100 SBR points?

[BillyCostigan]

Originally Posted by Peep

Betonline. Are you now claiming that you set up all your other conference bets as regular season champs, and just the Big East as Playoff champs?

Hahaha. Isn't this the same book that got in trouble in the US a while back???

[HedgeHog]

Originally Posted by BetOnline

Yeah, some guys say it's a slam dunk on our side as well in some forums; this is what happens when smart guys (this player is smart, my lines guy is as well) bump heads.

Here's our position, other sites and banners in gyms aside:

The player bet "To win the Big East Conference
Championship" on his ticket.

As Syracuse, according to BigEast.org, "clinched regular season title," they also "clinched bye to Big East Championship Quarterfinal."

In BigEast.org's schedule, you can see that Syracuse played in the "BIG EAST Men's Basketball Championship" on Thu, Mar 11 and lost 84 to 91 against Georgetown.


The Orangemen played in, but did not win, "the Big East Conference Championship" hence the bet is graded as a loss.

When you bet college BB futures in November, clearly you're betting on the regular season title. No one thinks of conference tourney championships until Feb or March. How fukkin stupid are you guys?

[patswin]

how can someone offer conference tournament odds in november?

this makes no sense. I normally steer clear of these book vs player issues but this one is a no brainer.

syracuse won the big east pay the bet. conference tournaments are different than the regular season

[tomcowley]

Originally Posted by Peep

Oh, and maybe you want to comment on the event date too Alex.

The one that was originally set (when the man made the bet) as one that was before the playoffs?



And I'll take your bet for 100 points Tom.

I'll bet 100 that SBR finds in favor of the player. This one is blantant, with a smoking gun in the changed bet date to seal the deal.

We on for 100 SBR points?

Booked. Action if and only if SBR posts an opinion, or the two players involved in the thread confirm that SBR took the stance that they should get paid before BOL pays (or doesn't pay, but we'll read about that for sure).

e.g. if Alex gets his head out of his ass by himself 10 minutes from now, before SBR does anything, no action.

[HedgeHog]

Despite the BOL banner flying here, I can't see SBR agreeing with this BS. BOL is clearly in the wrong.

[tomcowley]

Yeah, but it's not the first time. Or the second time.

[Bill Dozer]

The player makes supporting arguments that need to be addressed. The sportsbooks can't leave wording up to interpretation. I'm sure BetOnline will look at each of these.

Curious, did the player list the odds for this bet at BOetonline vs. other books? The payout would be dramatically different for a season champ and tourney champ.

[Peep]

Thanks Bill for entering the thread.

The player did state earlier that The Greek had the same props at just a slightly worst price. Chris from The Greek also stated that BOL copied the prop from them, and they paid off on regular season. All this is documented at OGD, if it is not here.

Give me a good ruling and I got 50 pts for you.

[Bill Dozer]

We are going to discuss with BetOnline again tomorrow. I expect this to be a closed case by the end of the day.