[allin1]

looking live at the matched volume on cricket australia - england 1st T20
betdaq: 112 k
betfair: 6.136k

shocking difference

I wonder how much gets matched on matchbook on cricket

[Hareeba!]

looking live at the matched volume on cricket australia - england 1st T20
betdaq: 112 k
betfair: 6.136k

shocking difference

I wonder how much gets matched on matchbook on cricket

Looking at the current available liquidity and odds you'd have to say SFA!

[allin1]

Looking at the current available liquidity and odds you'd have to say SFA!

I am amazed of the volume that is traded on betfair on cricket. 16 mil already for this match alone
No wonder they afford to increase their commission. It will take a lot more than that to lose their customers.

[jjgold]

Matchbook is more for American Sports, some tennis and some soccer

[Hareeba!]

Just took another look at the Superbowl MLs:

Pinnacle: Seattle 2.09, Denver 1.8475
Betfair (at 3% comm.) 2.1058 and 1.8509 respectively

[allin1]

Just took another look at the Superbowl MLs:

Pinnacle: Seattle 2.09, Denver 1.8475
Betfair (at 3% comm.) 2.1058 and 1.8509 respectively

but those prices at betfair are available for less than 1k while at pinny you can bet 50k in one shot. If you want to bet 50k at betfair now on the superbowl in one go, you'll end up getting an average price equal or lower than what pinny is offering.

Matchbook has better prices than betfair on this market and higher volume offered

[bostonboss]

big volume betting in cricket.

[allin1]

Look at the difference in Premier League soccer payouts between leading bookmakers and Pinnacle Sports:

http://allin1.mysbrforum.com/photos/l/wky1m2M9.jpg

[Hareeba!]

but those prices at betfair are available for less than 1k while at pinny you can bet 50k in one shot. If you want to bet 50k at betfair now on the superbowl in one go, you'll end up getting an average price equal or lower than what pinny is offering.

Matchbook has better prices than betfair on this market and higher volume offered

Sure there isn't $50k in liquidity but how many of us bet in those sort of numbers. There was actually a lot more than $1k available earlier. It does fluctuate. Also there is a Superbowl winner market as well as a game market. And one feature of an exchange which Pinnacle can't match is to ask for a better price. I get many bets matched that way.
Anyway, the point of my post was to try and negate the endless crap that gets posted about Betfair not being able to match Pinnacle's odds. Anyone who doesn't have accounts with both is costing themselves.
And yes, Matchbook may be even better due to lower commissions. You really should have accounts at all three.

[Hareeba!]

Look at the difference in Premier League soccer payouts between leading bookmakers and Pinnacle Sports:

http://hareeba.mysbrforum.com/photos/l/uxusumY8.jpg

Things like this always remind me of "lies, damned lies and statistics"
In the Betfair comparison I reckon they would be using a standard 5% commission? Not everyone, including myself, pays that. And on Asian handicaps the commission is only 0.75%.
I always compare odds before betting and the fact that I place at least as much on soccer at Betfair as I do at Pinnacle is a more convincing statistic for me.

[tommygun]

Pinnacle is a damn fine book but not up to the level of betfair.
Besides on betfair you can lay.

[allin1]

Most of the big volume matched at betfair is because of traders.

Straight bettors (and sharp people are usually straight bettors, they do not hedge, they do not scalp), will rather go for high limits, no comissions, no premium charge.

The fact is that pinnacle gets more action in volume than any other shop on earth and that happens because of a good reason, considering they do not even invest in advertising like betfair and others do.

The fact that betfair is lately focusing more on attracting square action tells you everything you need to know about them. Their exchange is what it is because of traders.

Matchbook on the other hand can become a real competitor for pinny if their available volume increases.

[Hareeba!]

Matchbook on the other hand can become a real competitor for pinny if their available volume increases.

They need more than just volume increases.

A heap more markets and faster/more reliable software would be reasonable start.

But I guess if they attend to that the volume increases will come.

Seems to me that they are extraordinarily slow in getting to where they promised to be heading after the change in ownership.

[jjgold]

Matchbook and Pinnacle are heavy scalp volume books which is not a bad thing actually, still makes the lines very accurate.

[TFC]

Just took another look at the Superbowl MLs:

Pinnacle: Seattle 2.09, Denver 1.8475
Betfair (at 3% comm.) 2.1058 and 1.8509 respectively

And just to be fair (and on topic): after 6.5% commission Betfair's price is Seattle 2.05 & Denver 1.82 .

Yes, it was once possible to reduce your commission at Betfair to as low as 2% (I was at a reduced rate for a very long time myself) -- but it is not possible anymore for most of us. A few months ago Betfair increased the requirements for earning point reductions substantially (at least for most non-Brits or Irish - not sure about Australia). For example, you now need to earn 7,000 points instead of 1,000 points to see your first reduction. For that reason, the premium charge and other reasons, many of us have moved all of or some of our money and action to Betdaq, Matchbook, Pinnacle and elsewhere - necessarily, further reducing any possibility of earning the commission reduction.

Hareeba, I realize you are a big Betfair fan and obviously a heavy player, but I think quoting odds at 3% commission is a bit disingenuous of you. Unless, that is, you honestly believe the average SBR reader is really going to earn and then maintain 150,000 Betfair points a week - which is the new requirement to maintain 3% for most of us outside the UK and Ireland. For those of you unfamiliar with Betfair's point system that would essentially mean generating roughly $30,000CDN COMMISSION from your bets and maintaining that level of betting on a weekly basis* (note: that is not $30,000 worth of winning bets per week but $30,000 comission from those bets!). I'm pretty sure not even Betfair's own marketing department would try selling us that one.

---
*For the sake of simplicity (and, perhaps, to sway the argument towards my side), yes, I have ignored Betfair's rules about 15% weekly point decay and using possible "point holidays" to maintain your balance. The central point stands: you have to be one mighty big high roller nowadays to reach and then maintain 3% commission at Betfair. The actual rules and regulations can be found on their site for those interested in the nitty gritty.

[allin1]

so why are betfair so greedy with commission and premium charge? could it be because of their market makers?

[tommygun]

how active are market makers?

[allin1]

how active are market makers?

I don't know

bettingpromotion seems to be involved but I don't know to what extent

[Hareeba!]

And just to be fair (and on topic): after 6.5% commission Betfair's price is Seattle 2.05 & Denver 1.82 .

Yes, it was once possible to reduce your commission at Betfair to as low as 2% (I was at a reduced rate for a very long time myself) -- but it is not possible anymore for most of us. A few months ago Betfair increased the requirements for earning point reductions substantially (at least for most non-Brits or Irish - not sure about Australia). For example, you now need to earn 7,000 points instead of 1,000 points to see your first reduction. For that reason, the premium charge and other reasons, many of us have moved all of or some of our money and action to Betdaq, Matchbook, Pinnacle and elsewhere - necessarily, further reducing any possibility of earning the commission reduction.

Hareeba, I realize you are a big Betfair fan and obviously a heavy player, but I think quoting odds at 3% commission is a bit disingenuous of you. Unless, that is, you honestly believe the average SBR reader is really going to earn and then maintain 150,000 Betfair points a week - which is the new requirement to maintain 3% for most of us outside the UK and Ireland. For those of you unfamiliar with Betfair's point system that would essentially mean generating roughly $30,000CDN COMMISSION from your bets and maintaining that level of betting on a weekly basis* (note: that is not $30,000 worth of winning bets per week but $30,000 comission from those bets!). I'm pretty sure not even Betfair's own marketing department would try selling us that one.

---
*For the sake of simplicity (and, perhaps, to sway the argument towards my side), yes, I have ignored Betfair's rules about 15% weekly point decay and using possible "point holidays" to maintain your balance. The central point stands: you have to be one mighty big high roller nowadays to reach and then maintain 3% commission at Betfair. The actual rules and regulations can be found on their site for those interested in the nitty gritty.

I most certainly wasn't intending to be "disingenuous". That's why I deliberately disclosed that I was basing the comparison on 3% which is what my current rate has been hovering around for quite some time. Less "disingenuous" than Pinnacle quoting comparisons whilst failing to disclose the commission they have based it on.

Of course those paying full commission (5% or 6.5%) will probably find that Pinnacle's odds are better, at least on the market I referred to. But to ignore the fact that regular users do pay less commission is disingenuous. And when it comes to soccer Asian handicaps EVERY user pays just 0.75% (unless they are one of the minority being slugged with the premium charge).

As to the ability to get commission discounts I confess to not knowing how much harder that is in other jurisdictions. I am not aware that it has been made any harder to earn and maintain the discounts in Australia at least. I certainly haven't noticed that and most certainly am not paying commissions anywhere within cooee of the numbers you've mentioned. In nobody's language could I possibly be described as a "mighty big high roller" so something's not quite right about the calculations you're doing to come up with those numbers.

You're right, I am a Betfair fan. And that's because every day I find that they do have the best odds (net of commission) on some of the stuff I'm betting on. I'm also a big fan of Pinnacle and of Matchbook and SBO for the same reason.

[tommygun]

Hareeba how do you rate Matchbook?

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba how do you rate Matchbook?

I really do like Matchbook.
More often than not I can find odds (net of effectively 2% commission) for US sports which are superior to those offered by Pinnacle.
Depends on your staking levels at times though as liquidity can be an issue well before game times. Mostly though for my moderate levels it's fine.
Unfortunately they don't have as many markets as their opposition though and despite forever promising to become real competitors with Betfair they have a mighty long way to go in that regard. Progress seems remarkably slow.
Just one example is no first half markets in NBA.
On the plus side they have zero commission this season on all soccer markets which seems to have significantly boosted liquidity.
But for other markets which I've been looking at recently, e.g. golf liquidity isn't great and you have far more chance of getting matched at Betfair.

[allin1]

I don't think it's worth it for matchbook to add more mickey mouse markets that would get low volumes matched

I like them the way they are now.

[jjgold]

allin correct

Betfair has many mickey mouse markets that get little volume

a waste

This Hareeba knows his books

[TFC]

. In nobody's language could I possibly be described as a "mighty big high roller" so something's not quite right about the calculations you're doing to come up with those numbers.

Well, I'm not making the numbers up. They come from Betfair's terms and conditions easily found on their website. My calculations were rough -- but well within the ballpark. If I missed something, I am open to correction. It doesn't matter which country you live in (or which currency you bet in) you earn 1 Betfair point for each 10 pence (£0.10) you paid in commission from your winnings (or implied commission if you have net losses). In order to earn the top reduction you must earn and then maintain 150,000 points (with a 15% weekly point decay). Therefore you would need to generate £15,000 in commission to receive the top reduction. I quickly doubled that to $30,000CDN (it's actually $27,775CDN, so I upped it a bit for dramatic effect).

[Hareeba!]

Well, I'm not making the numbers up. They come from Betfair's terms and conditions easily found on their website. My calculations were rough -- but well within the ballpark. If I missed something, I am open to correction. It doesn't matter which country you live in (or which currency you bet in) you earn 1 Betfair point for each 10 pence (£0.10) you paid in commission from your winnings (or implied commission if you have net losses). In order to earn the top reduction you must earn and then maintain 150,000 points (with a 15% weekly point decay). Therefore you would need to generate £15,000 in commission to receive the top reduction. I quickly doubled that to $30,000CDN (it's actually $27,775CDN, so I upped it a bit for dramatic effect).

Well you seem to be well on top of the figures so please tell me what commission you believe I need to be paying each week to maintain my discount at 40% to have me paying 3% commission.

[TFC]

so why are betfair so greedy with commission and premium charge? could it be because of their market makers?

They are a publically traded company who need to please their stakeholders on a quarterly basis. So, like many publicly traded companies these days they are solely focused on generating short term profits to the detriment of the long term viability. The current CEO will be long gone and sitting pretty when the chickens come home to roost. Also, not to be ignored, they operate a virtual monopoly -- so they can get away with it. And, unfortunately, instead of championing competition some punters are practically begging Betfair for even more abuse.

As I understand it, Betfair is losing or has already lost many market makers. Once they earn $250,000 and have to pay the dreaded Premium Charge it is no longer a viable risk - considering the reward - for those high-rollers. Their money can be better invested elsewhere at much less risk.

[kkkkk]

You all forget something! At betfair if you are simply betting either pregame or live, and not trading, you are charged with comission only IF YOU WIN! so assuming 95% of bettors hit 50/50 their bets or 55/45 they will pay only at HALF bets comission, on rest they wont be charged. What does this mean? This mean that you pay comission on HALF of your volume or thats the same - your comission in avarage is just HALF of your personal comission! Point.
In other words if you're set to pay 5% comission this is in avarage 2.5, if you pay 3% this is actually 1.5%. So Pinnacle can go and f. themself with their lies.


P.S. If you found that post usefull send some points here

[timbaland99]

What is the difference between trading and betting live? What is "poms" or "Pom"

[Hareeba!]

What is the difference between trading and betting live? What is "poms" or "Pom"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...or_the_British

[timbaland99]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...or_the_British

Thanks buddy.

[jjgold]

It seems to me the difference as far as laying juice between matchbook, pinnacle and betfair is all very minuscule. Well its what I think from reading these great posts here.

[tommygun]

I really do like Matchbook.
More often than not I can find odds (net of effectively 2% commission) for US sports which are superior to those offered by Pinnacle.
Depends on your staking levels at times though as liquidity can be an issue well before game times. Mostly though for my moderate levels it's fine.
Unfortunately they don't have as many markets as their opposition though and despite forever promising to become real competitors with Betfair they have a mighty long way to go in that regard. Progress seems remarkably slow.
Just one example is no first half markets in NBA.
On the plus side they have zero commission this season on all soccer markets which seems to have significantly boosted liquidity.
But for other markets which I've been looking at recently, e.g. golf liquidity isn't great and you have far more chance of getting matched at Betfair.

Thanks Hareeba, I had a quick look at matchbook last night at the Nottingham Forest v Watford match and liquidity looked pretty good to me. That was all I looked at though. Not sure whether it's useful for me to have an account there.

[Hareeba!]

Well, I'm not making the numbers up. They come from Betfair's terms and conditions easily found on their website. My calculations were rough -- but well within the ballpark. If I missed something, I am open to correction. It doesn't matter which country you live in (or which currency you bet in) you earn 1 Betfair point for each 10 pence (£0.10) you paid in commission from your winnings (or implied commission if you have net losses). In order to earn the top reduction you must earn and then maintain 150,000 points (with a 15% weekly point decay). Therefore you would need to generate £15,000 in commission to receive the top reduction. I quickly doubled that to $30,000CDN (it's actually $27,775CDN, so I upped it a bit for dramatic effect).

Well, I really don't need to do the arithmetic to know the facts. I can simply look at my betting database to get it right.

I don't need to maintain (and never have had anything close to 150,000 points) yet I've been on or about 3% commission (40% discount) for a couple of years now. Maintaining a points balance of 49,000 is all that's required to do that.

In terms of commissions paid, last year, allowing for 4 weeks when I was overseas and didn't bet, I averaged $680 per week in commissions. That's long long long way short of your calculated $30K!

[allin1]

hareeba are you a scalper/arber/trader or would you call yourself a handicapper?

you can answer in pm if you don't want to make it public.

[Hareeba!]

hareeba are you a scalper/arber/trader or would you call yourself a handicapper?

you can answer in pm if you don't want to make it public.

certainly not an arber or trader

so I s'pose that qualifies me as a handicapper?