[chance]

We gamblers need to fight this crap!!! Support other exchanges!!!




Following a period of review and customer consultation, we will be making some changes to the Premium Charge that will come into effect 12th October 2009. The changes are designed to simplify the charge and have been devised specifically to address the most consistent topics of concern expressed by customers during the review. We anticipate that the changes will reduce the number of customers affected by the charge and also the total amount of Premium Charges collected each week.
The changes are as follows:

1. Extend the rolling ‘60 week’ calculation to a ‘lifetime’ calculation

Currently the charge calculation primarily considers each customer’s gross profits and total charges paid over the previous 60 week period. Any customer in profit over the previous 60 weeks, with total charges generated during that period less than 20% of gross profits, will be considered eligible to incur Premium Charges.
From 12th October the 60 week calculation will be extended to include all activity during the lifetime of each account. For the purposes of introducing the amend, we will assume that all customers had generated total charges equal to at least 20% of lifetime gross profits as of 22nd September 2008 (the date the Premium Charge was introduced) and that all charges generated since that date will count towards offsetting potential future Premium Charges. The £1,000 allowance against the charge, the 250 market threshold and the exclusion of any single win that constitutes more than 50% of gross profits will also apply to the lifetime of each account.

1. Amend the ‘total charges generated’ calculation

‘Total charges generated’ is currently defined as the sum of all commission generated plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges paid by each customer. If ‘total charges generated’ exceed 20% of gross profits won then customers are exempt from paying Premium Charges.
From the 12th October 2009, Transaction and Data Request Charges paid after that date will not be included within the ‘total charges’ calculation. However, all Transaction and Data Request Charges paid up to and including 11th October 2009 will be included within the lifetime ‘total charges’ offset.

1. Simplify the ‘Implied Commission’ calculation

The calculation for the ‘commission generated’ by each customer is currently defined as;
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2

where

Implied Commission = market losses x average market commission rate
From 12th October 2009, for the purposes of the Premium Charge, Implied Commission will be defined as;
Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
If you have any questions about the changes we are making to the Premium Charge please email premiumcharge@betfair.com.

[Stumpage]

Well, that does me in. They served their pupose and were a great out, but time to move on.

[betpartners]

I defend Betfair a lot but NOT on this

This premium charge crap is a ****ing wind up big time

They are eliminating the edge on odds that Betfair users enjoyed and for them to shoot themeselves in the foot like this defies logic.

The problem is i bet on football in play and no other bookie offers me what i need in terms of liquidity on games without restrictions on what i bet.

They got a monopoly and i dont like it one bit

[acw]

So have you guys been winning on BetFair? Left alone paying the Premium Charge? Are you guys all traders?

For me this Premium Charge does not go far enough. BetFair needs to adopt the same system as Matchbook.

[katstale]

Time for people to start making the move and beating the drum for Betmaker. I am looking this over closely and I feel that Cris' foray into this is timed perfect for them and the player. If you know people playing at betfair send them to Betmaker. Faster we can get the word out and increase liquidity at betmaker--the faster it becomes a place to be every day.

Also, if doesn't hurt to whine to them abt b2b fees etc. if those were in line with industry standards--i would be much bigger fan.

[noyb]

Originally Posted by katstale

. If you know people playing at betfair send them to Betmaker.

you're joking, right? not sure if you noticed most people at betfair do not bet US sports (matchbook usually is a much better out on those sports anyway). in everything else betmaker is not offering markets or completely dead, it's in no way a viable competitor to betfair.

that being said, no other exchange is. the real strength of betfair is their offering in soccer, tennis, cricket, other euro sports. those of you who do not bet these sports have no idea how many lightyears betfair is ahead to all other exchanges in terms of liquidity (the only thing that matters for an exchange and its customers in the end) and really are in no position to comment. to encourage people to move elsewhere to betting exchanges which are non existent, dead or hardly alive in f.e. soccer is terribly naive imo.

the pc charge obviously is a bitch, and i'm dead against it. nevertheless, i'm not sure if the changes to the pc charge that ware announced now are actually a bad thing compared to how it was. i can only speak for myself in a way that i never paid the pc charge but always feared i might one day. now with these changes i'm pretty sure that day will never come, definitely not in the first 5 years in any case.

[JoeVig]

Originally Posted by acw

So have you guys been winning on BetFair? Left alone paying the Premium Charge? Are you guys all traders?

What's wrong with that?

[durito]

Originally Posted by katstale

Time for people to start making the move and beating the drum for Betmaker. I am looking this over closely and I feel that Cris' foray into this is timed perfect for them and the player. If you know people playing at betfair send them to Betmaker. Faster we can get the word out and increase liquidity at betmaker--the faster it becomes a place to be every day.

Also, if doesn't hurt to whine to them abt b2b fees etc. if those were in line with industry standards--i would be much bigger fan.

any idea what cris want to move cash to betmaker?

[Hareeba!]

None of us liked the PC from the outset but to go off about them now lessening (as I read it) the effect of it seems rather odd?

As for other exchanges ... yeah sure, let me know when they have some genuine liquidity let alone offer markets on tennis, football, rugby, cricket and AFL

[chance]

Betfair have not relaxed the charge but the complete opposite. Previously after 60 weeks you effectively started again and did not get charged. Now they have removed that loop hole their is no escape. Now once you hit profit you get stung for ever.

[Toit]

'Total charges generated’ is currently defined as the sum of all commission generated plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges paid by each customer. If ‘total charges generated’ exceed 20% of gross profits won then customers are exempt from paying Premium Charges.

Does anybody know if this includes commission paid by 'the other side'? (I mean commission generated if you lose a bet.)

[chance]

They do factor in the commission generated by losing. It is called implied commission. They don't add it to what you have paid though. Confusing!!!!!!! YES

Stupid greedy bastards

[Hareeba!]

Originally Posted by chance

Betfair have not relaxed the charge but the complete opposite. Previously after 60 weeks you effectively started again and did not get charged. Now they have removed that loop hole their is no escape. Now once you hit profit you get stung for ever.

Not really. It was a rolling 60 weeks. You never went back to Go and started again with a clean sheet. If you took a 60 weeks holiday you may have.

And you don't get stung forever. If your commission rate rises above 20% you don't pay the PC.

Not defending Betfair really as I too think this is bad policy and smacks of greed.

[chance]

I was referring to a complete 60 week break.

[betpartners]

Originally Posted by acw

So have you guys been winning on BetFair? Left alone paying the Premium Charge? Are you guys all traders?

For me this Premium Charge does not go far enough. BetFair needs to adopt the same system as Matchbook.

Like JoeVig says what difference does it make

Yes i trade, generally in play for the record, but who cares how one bets

If you think the £2 punters create the liquidity you are mistaken, the liquidity is created by the traders and to a large extent by other sportsbooks.

Without that liquidity there is no market.

There original excuse was to go after the bots but even that was a load of shit.

This is greed plain and simple

[Arilou]

Betfair is using what they believe to be their monopoly power to extract monopoly prices. As a business their job is to maximize profits, and they are in a position to extract these fees given the way the market is now. They offer products that are not available elsewhere, or not available elsewhere for size, and many have no choice but to come to them. Others don't care, the same way many European books get away with -115 style pricing.

The key is to not think of Betfair as a way to get reduced juice. That's Matchbook's big advantage but Betfair's selling point is its liquidity and product offerings (and previously I would have said trustworthy history, but there's been some troubling stuff reported here about that lately). If there are reduced juice (or for those not giving them large volume or about to hit the tax, even normal juice) outs that will let you get down what you want, they'll be a favorite on a given line to outbid betfair.

You don't get down on CRIS or Olympic for charging -110; that's just who they are. They offer a quality product, but if you want the best odds they're not usually your best bet. If you accept that Betfair is like that, a full-price out, you'll realize they are a quite useful one if you know how to price in your implied costs.

[acw]

Originally Posted by betpartners

Yes i trade, generally in play for the record, but who cares how one bets

http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.php?t=196782

Originally Posted by Dell Dude

You guys are an embarrassment. I think middlers and scalpers are to sportsbetting what Muslim terrorists are to Islam. May Allah have mercy on your evil souls.

[chance]

Question for Arilou(I agree with the rest of your post). What formula or method do you use for factoring in the implied pricing? ie the extra 20%. Personally I presently believe if you take into the account the 20% their prices can not possibly be competitive.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Originally Posted by chance

Question for Arilou(I agree with the rest of your post). What formula or method do you use for factoring in the implied pricing? ie the extra 20%. Personally I presently believe if you take into the account the 20% their prices can not possibly be competitive.

If you're paying it, they're not competitive at all. They're barely even competitive even before premium charge - almost always you can find a better price somewhere else pre-match.

Problem is, inplay traders generally have no choice.

[Santo]

For in-running traders, even paying 20% of profits is better than the Matchbook system of 1% per trade.

[pjesnik24]

betfair sucks. I wish mansion or matchmywager exchanges were still up and running

[Hareeba!]

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

almost always you can find a better price somewhere else pre-match.

well you must have access to better books than I if that's the case
sure you may be able to get down some petty cash at better prices with some bookies but if you are patient you'll almost always do better at Betfair for reasonable sized stakes unless you are playing exotic markets

[citlec]

So what happens if you lost thousands from the start of your account for a year then the 2nd and 3rd year you won more than 90% of your money back, now under the old rules id pay PC on my years profit but under the new rule my account would show a loss so i wouldnt get charged but does that mean Betfair will refund me all the premium charge ive paid for year 3? I DONT THINK SO

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Originally Posted by Hareeba!

well you must have access to better books than I if that's the case
sure you may be able to get down some petty cash at better prices with some bookies but if you are patient you'll almost always do better at Betfair for reasonable sized stakes unless you are playing exotic markets

No, I'm not even talking crappy books that will limit fast. I'm talking high stake places like sbo or pinnacle. For example, Atletico vs Zaragoza tonight:

Pinnacle 1.833 / 3.70 / 4.91
Betfair 1.806 / 3.59 / 5.03 (after 4% commission)


Bolton-Tottenham:

Pinnacle 3.70 / 3.65 / 2.10
Betfair 3.64 / 3.59 / 2.09



That's just one book. Add on IBC, SBO and a few others and you'll always get a much better price at real books than betfair, and no premium charge either.

[mminkovski]

Betfair is good to cover your arbs. In a long run you will always be on negative side at BF and positive at other bookies.

[Toit]

Originally Posted by mminkovski

Betfair is good to cover your arbs. In a long run you will always be on negative side at BF and positive at other bookies.

Then you shouldn't cover your bets and make more money, or am I missing something?

[Santo]

In certain situations it's right to lower variance at the expense of profit

[Toit]

Originally Posted by Santo

In certain situations it's right to lower variance at the expense of profit

Can you give me an example?
If you cover all your arbs and end up with a negative balance at betfair you know how to beat the market over time.
It seems to me that if you start covering some of the bets you bugger up your ROI.

[noyb]

Originally Posted by Toit

Can you give me an example?

for example, if you've got a limited bank and the not-covered bets have high variance. you might be getting value every single bet you place, yet go bust anyway. partly or completely covering your bets decreases or eliminates that risk.

[acw]

Originally Posted by Toit

Then you shouldn't cover your bets and make more money, or am I missing something?

Correct answer! Still making a profit on BetFair several years ago I already decided to stop using them, since 75% of my gross winnings went into commissions being paid. Now I am not a trader and the way BetFair's commission structure has been built it favours traders so much that it is only a matter of time for more and more guys to discover this. In the end it becomes a game of only traders against each other, in which BetFair ends up earning only very little.

As an exchange you need hard core gamblers and how do you get hard core gamblers? Well even exchanges are forced to provide credit. Next thing is that the winners need to be paid and the losers will not pay, so how to cover this? BetFair now simply steals money from certain accounts. Matchbook/WSEX does many other things!

[Hareeba!]

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

No, I'm not even talking crappy books that will limit fast. I'm talking high stake places like sbo or pinnacle. For example, Atletico vs Zaragoza tonight:

Pinnacle 1.833 / 3.70 / 4.91
Betfair 1.806 / 3.59 / 5.03 (after 4% commission)


Bolton-Tottenham:

Pinnacle 3.70 / 3.65 / 2.10
Betfair 3.64 / 3.59 / 2.09



That's just one book. Add on IBC, SBO and a few others and you'll always get a much better price at real books than betfair, and no premium charge either.

One can always find examples to suit one's argument. I bet at Betfair, Pinnacle and SBO and do so on the basis of best net prices. The fact that I have higher turnover at Betfair says they more frequently have the top price. As I said above, you do best if you can be patient. Instead of just taking the current price on offer, put in a bid for a higher price. More often than not if you give it time you'll get matched.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Same example, all the time. In every single game in all the top leagues in Europe, betfair doesn't have best market price. It's inevitable - pinnacle and the asian books operate to 5c lines, whereas 4% commission on betfair equates to 8c lines at best, and often worse than that.

Arsenal/Blackburn -1.75AH: pinnacle 1.96/1.99, betfair 1.91/1.95
Everton/Stoke -1AH: pinnacle 2.07/1.86, betfair 2.00/1.83
Westham/Fulham -0.25AH: pinnacle 1.86/2.07, betfair 1.84/1.99
Chelsea/Liverpool -0.25AH: pinnacle 1.80/2.15, betfair 1.81/2.09


Again, it's only one single book, yet it beats betfair every time, and doesn't charge you £500+ premium charge per week for the privilege of betting there.

It's even worse on 1x2, where 4% commission equates to a 103.8% market, whereas pinnacle are on 101.75%.

[Hareeba!]

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Same example, all the time. In every single game in all the top leagues in Europe, betfair doesn't have best market price. It's inevitable - pinnacle and the asian books operate to 5c lines, whereas 4% commission on betfair equates to 8c lines.

ANNNNNND, premium charge. Why pay betfair £500 a week for the privilege of taking worse prices?

soccer ain't the only sport in the world!
and as I said I base my decision where to bet on the best net price I can get and do have quite a bit of action at Betfair on soccer so obviously it can't be "every single game"
but fortunately I am not paying the PC yet, fx

[chance]

Originally Posted by citlec

So what happens if you lost thousands from the start of your account for a year then the 2nd and 3rd year you won more than 90% of your money back, now under the old rules id pay PC on my years profit but under the new rule my account would show a loss so i wouldnt get charged but does that mean Betfair will refund me all the premium charge ive paid for year 3? I DONT THINK SO

This hypothetical example describes my situation. I will be gob smacked if I get a refund.

Everyone support the other exchanges where ever possible. Until they lose significant market share they will always screw the customer out of as much as possible.

[SPECULATOR 13]

Originally Posted by chance

This hypothetical example describes my situation. I will be gob smacked if I get a refund.

Everyone support the other exchanges where ever possible. Until they lose significant market share they will always screw the customer out of as much as possible.

Chance if i wasn't a atheist i would pray for you,however we use positive though and thinking instead,so i will wish that you get your money back.Without being patronizing i feel that they will ended up paying back.
A far as the support for those Betfair assh.les are concern don't worry about it,the clock is ticking....You'll see out of nowhere you'll wake up one morning and find out that they have folded.
Just wait till BETMAKER get off and running full tilt and EUGIA is repealed....Good luck today!!