[white]

I opened the account in euros, pointed to the old account (this is not
required to send the documents again) - through days 5 responded that
everything is OK, you can fully make use of the account (except for the
Australian market).
I made a deposit to the account 4780 Eur via Web$ and began to play -
has made a bet.
Next replenished via moneybookers 10 euros and made bets about 6-7
thousand euros.
Moneybookers ordered a 2000 euro - this payment I received.

More decorated the output on my Moneybookers account in the amount of
2874,7 EUR .
After a time trying to enter the account and see - the account is
locked.

I am writing in support - this is their response:
"Hello, Yuriy!

You are suspected of using our site as a means to transfer money between
different types of payment systems.
To open an account you need to send copies of notarized documents
confirming your identity and place of residence (Australian law)."
-------------------
I do not know what they were entitled to require to pass a full scan of
Australian law. But I sent them to e-mail scanned copies of passport
certified by a notary. Then I waited for them to answer two weeks! So
without waiting for an answer written himself and got this response:
"Dear Yuriy,

In response to recent enquiries regarding your Betfair account we would
like to advise that your account with us has been permanently closed
following an investigation into your activities on our site. Any funds
in your account will not be returned to you.

We will suspend or terminate an account at our absolute discretion if we
suspect that a user is engaging in illegal or fraudulent activity while
using any of the products offered on the Betfair website. This action
taken is in accordance with our terms and conditions to which all users
must agree before opening an account with us. Please refer to the terms
and conditions located on the Betfair website ."
-------------------
I am sure that they (betfair) have no right to confiscate my money !!! I
can provide any documents proving identity, and insist on paying my
money to any available in my country (Ukraine) methods, such as bank
transfer or Web$.
Well, they have a right through close, but they have no right to confiscate my money!!! The same would be theft!!! Or abuse of authority by someone from the staff betfair pretext to steal money!!!
Yes, it would add that the old dollar account, I fully played and had a discount, and he is now the way is not blocked! Here is swinish, care attitude to me as a client!
Also very much want to hear from the representative of the betfair in forum, if there is.

[Chopsticks]

I hope you do get your money back, but you should not have done what you did. More specific the €10 deposit and then withdrawing several thousand. I am surprised they allowed you to withdraw that much when you should have been required to withdraw to Web$ -- irregardless of whether or not you have used or not used that option in your other account.

Honestly the first thing I thought when opening this thread was: Poker or multiple accounts with multiple payment options.

It is likely that they want to do some investigating, so I wouldn't expect to see the money for at least a few days.

[white]

I can assure you that I have not played in Poker, received no bonus, and account for me (second account also for me, that is not prohibited by the rules betfair).

[Chopsticks]

Yes. But why did you request a withdrawal to moneybookers and not to Web$ when it was from that you made a deposit? The €10 deposit from moneybookers make it look very suspicious, even if you were not really trying to launder money. That is unless you had a zero balance when doing it and you built that €10 up to what ever you withdrew.

Betfair is quite insistant that you have to withdraw the same amount as you have deposited with a specific method.

[AimingHigh]

Sorry to hear about the funds seizure, OP.

This reminds me of a similar tale re Betsson: http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...s-my-2-5k.html The complainant there said that Betfair had allowed them to "wash" the funds from one payment provider to another via Betfair. I wasn't sure that was true at the time. Your story makes clear it's definitely not true.

Betfair does not work with SBR. There's a recent thread where Justin makes that clear: http://forum.sbrforum.com/players-ta...ney-video.html

Because what you did appears to violate their money laundering rules, you may not be able to recover your funds. As Betfair don't work with SBR, your options are to complain to IBAS and the Gambling Commission in the UK. In addition, I suppose you could see if the FSA could help, as I believe it's the FSA's money laundering rules with which Betfair is complying when they seize your funds: http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/index.shtml

The bonus thing you mention is irrelevant.

[noyb]

if betfair really thinks these kinds of practices are that bad, they should take more measures to prevent it. closing the account, ok, but confiscating the funds is pretty excessive in this case, unless there's something we do not know.

for example, why did you open a second account (there are legitimate reasons to do this, and betfair does allow it, but for most users it's a pretty suspicious thing to do), and are you sure you never moved any money from the 1st to the 2nd account by matching your own bets, etc ????

[Halifax]

So let me see if I'm understanding this ....

This wasn't a situation where Betfair was concerned with some type of "chargeback" on the Web$ deposit.

Instead, Betfair thinks that this guy is depositing a big chunk through Web$, playing through a nominal amount at Betfair, and then withdrawing a big chunk to Moneybookers ... essentially, trying to move funds from Web$ to Moneybookers.

Is this what they're accusing him of ?

--------------------------

If true (and it looks like that might have been what the guy was trying to do), that's a pretty damn harsh penalty, confiscating all of his funds. I can understand charging him a fee equal to (or slightly more than) the costs incurred by Betfair for the deposits and withdrawals from Web$ and Moneybookers, but a complete confiscation of funds ? That type of action runs pretty damn close to scam territory on the part of Betfair.

[AimingHigh]

Originally Posted by Halifax

So let me see if I'm understanding this ....

This wasn't a situation where Betfair was concerned with some type of "chargeback" on the Web$ deposit.

Instead, Betfair thinks that this guy is depositing a big chunk through Web$, playing through a nominal amount at Betfair, and then withdrawing a big chunk to Moneybookers ... essentially, trying to move funds from Web$ to Moneybookers.

Is this what they're accusing him of ?

--------------------------

If true (and it looks like that might have been what the guy was trying to do), that's a pretty damn harsh penalty, confiscating all of his funds. I can understand charging him a fee equal to (or slightly more than) the costs incurred by Betfair for the deposits and withdrawals from Web$ and Moneybookers, but a complete confiscation of funds ? That type of action runs pretty damn close to scam territory on the part of Betfair.

I agree with you on your interpretation of what they're accusing the OP of. The difference, however, is that their concern isn't the fees the OP may be trying to avoid - there aren't any for Moneybookers, not sure about Web$ - but that they and other Euro bookies view this type of payment provider substitution as raising money laundering issues.

I very much hope that there are red flags other than just trying to move funds between 2 payment providers in the way the OP did, such as weird matched bets on empty markets, etc., which also raise money laundering concerns. Betfair never discloses any of that. Without knowing if there are other red flags, it's hard to know whether it's excessively harsh or not. Assuming there aren't other indicators, I agree it's very concerning.

[Halifax]

Originally Posted by AimingHigh

I agree with you on your interpretation of what they're accusing the OP of. The difference, however, is that their concern isn't the fees the OP may be trying to avoid - there aren't any for Moneybookers, not sure about Web$ - but that they and other Euro bookies view this type of payment provider substitution as raising money laundering issues.

I very much hope that there are red flags other than just trying to move funds between 2 payment providers in the way the OP did, such as weird matched bets on empty markets, etc., which also raise money laundering concerns. Betfair never discloses any of that. Without knowing if there are other red flags, it's hard to know whether it's excessively harsh or not. Assuming there aren't other indicators, I agree it's very concerning.

It just seems like an easy "cash grab" by Betfair, cloaked in the veil of "anti-money laundering policy".

It would be extremely easy for the Accounting / Payouts department to prevent this type of action by monitoring payouts a little more closely. TheGreek does it to me all the time ... I've asked for several book-to-book transfers out of TheGreek, where they've told me that I'm required to return $XXXX to Neteller / Moneybookers first, before I'm allowed to do an outgoing book-to-book transfer.

[AimingHigh]

For me, the weird part is how the players even get to submit these requests anyway.

Maybe it's different for other countries or certain payment providers (though I can't see why), but Betfair's deposit/withdrawal screens in the UK require you to withdraw back the amount you deposited to method X before you can withdraw to method Y. So the only way you can withdraw to method Y is to win money over and above the amount deposited from method X. This part is automated, so I'm not sure how anyone could submit a withdrawal request for method Y without having first withdrawn the amount deposited by method X back to method X. And if this is the case, then it should never get as far as raising money laundering issues. I hope that makes sense. It's basically an automated version of what you said TheGreek does.

So my conclusion is that either Betfair operates differently in different countries or for different payment providers, or there is always more to these stories.

[Santo]

white: Did you ever match bets between the two accounts?

That seems the most likely way to get around it, different processors on different accounts.

[chance]

This is extremely scary!!! Betfair are completely out of control.

The only way to stop this raping of the gambling world is to support the other exchanges Betdaq, Mtachbook and hopefully betmaker will be successfull.

[DukeJohn]

Betfair has been getting too many complaints to be rated A+. No A+ should be taking players funds unless there is outright fraud by the player and the book suffered a loss from it. We are talking about an A+ book here. Furthermore, if they do not work with SBR then they shouldn't be a A+ either. Many of us rely on these rating to steer us in the right direction and I enjoy knowing that my funds are pretty safe at an A+ book and if for some reason there was some crazy issue, I would have SBR there to help out. Just my thoughts on this, they should be downgraded to at least a C+ or something...

[questa]

Originally Posted by Santo

white: Did you ever match bets between the two accounts?

That seems the most likely way to get around it, different processors on different accounts.

i dont think OP will answer this, as it is very likely this is what he did. in which case, what do you expect??

[JoeVig]

What is the world coming to when a guy can't launder money by matching bets at an exchange or chip dumping at a poker room - sheeesh!!! Have to go see the local hawala now.

[Toit]

Originally Posted by chance

This is extremely scary!!! Betfair are completely out of control.

The only way to stop this raping of the gambling world is to support the other exchanges Betdaq, Mtachbook and hopefully betmaker will be successfull.

This is pennies to Betfair.
Just like you can only get pennies matched on your beloved Betdaq.

My guess is that the guy is a fraud, give him his tenner back and make him sweat over the rest for a while to stop people abusing Betfair (and other exchanges) to launder money.

[20Four7]

I won't say which site, but I often use a poker room which is linked to a bank account to get money there. Then I withdrawal to Moneybookers to get money to a sports book account. It's the cheapest and easiest way to do it. I"m not laundering money just avoiding wire charges to Moneybookers.

Everyone these days calls fraud and laundering way to quickly.

[Santo]

It's not the book's decision really, it's the law the book operates within - In the case of Betfair, they have to follow British law and the Financial Services Authority (FSA).

[SPECULATOR 13]

Originally Posted by chance

This is extremely scary!!! Betfair are completely out of control.

The only way to stop this raping of the gambling world is to support the other exchanges Betdaq, Mtachbook and hopefully betmaker will be successfull.

Originally Posted by DukeJohn

Betfair has been getting too many complaints to be rated A+. No A+ should be taking players funds unless there is outright fraud by the player and the book suffered a loss from it. We are talking about an A+ book here. Furthermore, if they do not work with SBR then they shouldn't be a A+ either. Many of us rely on these rating to steer us in the right direction and I enjoy knowing that my funds are pretty safe at an A+ book and if for some reason there was some crazy issue, they should be downgraded to at least a C+ or something...

They have gotten too big,too fast and too easy,for their own good!
They are literally digging their own grave,remember that misplaced and childish arrogance they demonstrated by not facing SBR's repeated inquiries,it shows that they are clearly on the path of self-destruction.
All over the internet and in a multitude of gambling forums people are saying the same thing,witch is being totally turn-off by Betfair and their bullsh.t.
Except of course for their paid little shills whom pop their little heads up like maggots in a cow turd every time betfair is called to the mat,for them to cry on their behalf and tell every one that everything is great and not bother with anything or anybody else that say different.....how silly.

[noyb]

Originally Posted by SPECULATOR 13

They have gotten too big,too fast and too easy,for their own good!
They are literally digging their own grave,remember that misplaced and childish arrogance they demonstrated by not facing SBR's repeated inquiries,it shows that they are clearly on the path of self-destruction.
All over the internet and in a multitude of gambling forums people are saying the same thing,witch is being totally turn-off by Betfair and their bullsh.t.
Except of course for their paid little shills whom pop their little heads up like maggots in a cow turd every time betfair is called to the mat,for them to cry on their behalf and tell every one that everything is great and not bother with anything or anybody else that say different.....how silly.

yet despite all of this, they are somehow infinitely bigger then all other exchanges combined. why would that be? let me tell you, it's called liquidity. they have it, others don't.

calling people shills who do not agree with you is pretty pathetic imo, but that's just me.

[betpartners]

Originally Posted by noyb

yet despite all of this, they are somehow infinitely bigger then all other exchanges combined. why would that be? let me tell you, it's called liquidity. they have it, others don't.

calling people shills who do not agree with you is pretty pathetic imo, but that's just me.

Speculater13 is a dumb twat ignore him

A few things in this dont make sense at all

For starters you cannot withdraw any funds to a seperate payment processor until the original sum has been returned to the original paying processor,

Damn that confused me

Simple as this, if i deposit $5k via **** then i must withdraw to ****

However if i have more than one withdrawal method set up say ********** and that through that i have deposited say $5k then yes i can deposit $5k via **** and withdraw $5k via **********

But if ********** is zero balance meaning that i have withdrawn what i have deposited but i have deposited $5k more than what i withdrew on **** then i must withdraw to ****.

Now the OP says he deposited €10 via Web$ but then withdraw €2000 to moneybookers, thats not possible

Unless he had already deposited €2000 with moneybookers, otherwise he would have been forced to withdraw to Web$

hope that makes sense

second point is betfair confiscating funds.

These are the exact rules governing this

we may suspend your account and all functionality relating to the use of your accounts (e.g. bet management and cash withdrawal) and withhold from you any funds in your account pending determination of any criminal or other legal proceedings or investigation to which such a request may relate or until you provide the necessary 'know your client' or 'age verification' information.

In addition

1. On termination or suspension of your account, in most cases we will return any funds in your account to you. However, we reserve the right to withhold the funds in your account from you pending the determination of any investigation (including any relevant external investigation): (i) where we suspect you have acted in breach of any term in this Agreement, including (but not limited to) where we suspect the account has been linked with fraudulent or dishonest activity; or (ii) where we have to withhold the funds in your account by law or to comply with any advice, request or instruction from any governmental, regulatory or enforcement authority (whether based in the UK or elsewhere). Following the determination of any such investigation we reserve the right to seize the funds in your account should we be satisfied that you have acted in breach of this Agreement. We will deal with any funds seized in this manner at our sole and absolute discretion.

Now the way i read that is that they suspect you of money laundering and they ahve either been advised or instructed to withhold your money until the outcome of an investigation.

Now if you have not broke the law go to IBAS, The gambling commision and consult a lawyer because if you are innocent then you will get your money back simple as that, Betfair must abide by the law.

Now on the other hand if you tried to clean your money and to be honest it does look like you did with that strange moneybookers deposit, then kiss yer money goodbye and expect a knock on the door from pc plod and his mates because your in deep doo doo matey

[austin]

[quote=betpartners;2308225]
A few things in this dont make sense at all

For starters you cannot withdraw any funds to a seperate payment processor until the original sum has been returned to the original paying processor,
...
I know there is at least one method that would allow this kind of 'operation' in betfair (please don't ask me about it). on that basis i assume that with Web$ it is also possible.
...

1. On termination or suspension of your account, in most cases we will return any funds in your account to you. However, we reserve the right to withhold the funds in your account from you pending the determination of any investigation (including any relevant external investigation): (i) where we suspect you have acted in breach of any term in this Agreement, including (but not limited to) where we suspect the account has been linked with fraudulent or dishonest activity; or (ii) where we have to withhold the funds in your account by law or to comply with any advice, request or instruction from any governmental, regulatory or enforcement authority (whether based in the UK or elsewhere). Following the determination of any such investigation we reserve the right to seize the funds in your account should we be satisfied that you have acted in breach of this Agreement. We will deal with any funds seized in this manner at our sole and absolute discretion.

Now the way i read that is that they suspect you of money laundering and they ahve either been advised or instructed to withhold your money until the outcome of an investigation.
...
The original poster also inquired about this issue on another (russian speaking) forum with all evidence suggesting that he was not able to provide an acceptable notarized copy of his id. hence, no access to his funds and the complaint to sbr.
...

[Blaz]

Oldie but relavent.

Can I be also accused of money laundering since I've deposited money via paysafecards but I'll be withdrawing it via bank transfer ?

I checked with their phone support and the operator said (had to check with "his boss" first though) it was all good since you can't withdraw with ***********, but I would still like to know about your opinion or even better, experience with this type of transactions.

Also I have gone through the Know Your Customer process successfully.

Thank you

[AimingHigh]

If you *can't* withdraw the same way you deposited, and you have bet through (rolled over) the funds at least once, I don't think you would be accused of money laundering. If you just deposited by *********** and then requested a bank withdrawal without betting through the deposit at least once, I think that could be viewed differently.

[nenad]

you cant withdraw money to other deposite method you didnt use before untill you have zero banace and made deposite i think its automaticly blocked on BetFair when you try.

[Dunder]

Originally Posted by JoeVig

What is the world coming to when a guy can't launder money by matching bets at an exchange or chip dumping at a poker room - sheeesh!!! Have to go see the local hawala now.

The EUR 10 Moneybookers deposit would be a red-flag in an account with thousands.

I have seen similar instances as this with Betfair before but they have always reimbursed the account holder (account being closed). ID issue?

[Blaz]

Aiming high: From the My Account, Deposit, selection *********** window:

Deposit Funds into your Betfair Account - ***********

Paysafecards are pre-paid payment cards for the Internet (similar to pre-paid telephone cards). Available over the counter at retailers across Europe, *********** can be bought in denominations of € 10, 25, 50 and 100 or £10, 25, 50 and 75 (at PayPoint outlets).

*********** can be used for depositing money into your Betfair account but not for withdrawing money from your Betfair account. Withdrawals from your Betfair account must be made by another method.

So yeah, I really can't. I can't find the exact quote but I believe you must be KVC-ed (verified) if you wish to deposit with Paysafe and therefore withdraw with another method.

What exactly do you mean by "rolled through". Betting the initial deposits ?

I have no intention of depositing money and not playing it since well, that's no way to make money

Also I would understand why someone (with lesser funds of course) would choose the action by the original poster.

You deposite 100€ to your account via international **********.

You play let's say two bets with 50 € and one wins with 200 € profit. You want to get that 200 € quickly BUT you haven't verified your international ********** and therefore cannot receive any money on it (so you could withdraw 100 to it).

What do you do ? You set up another payment method with 1€, withdraw it and therefore get another mean of withdrawl.

But yeah, it you a) can't provide KVC, b) are very very very impatient well things get harder for you.

Anyway thanks. I'll be in touch with BetFair again on this matter, so if I receive anything new I'll let you know.

EDIT: Their reply (which totally missed the point of the inquiry)

Please also note that deposits and withdrawals from your Betfair account are subject to our 'closed loop' policy. This policy means you must withdraw back to a method of payment at least the amount you deposited, before you are able to withdraw additional funds via another method.

EDIT, EDIT: Also if any UK heads care to do a more detailed telephone check up on this matter, it would be very appreciated. I need to wait until April for a new period since International calls are EXPENSIVE, yo.

EDIT, EDIT, EDIT: I deposited some funds via paysafecheck and I can access the bank transfer screen. I would transfer one euro via bank transfer just to check it out but I'm not sure if that would set any alarms. Paranoia ? Maybe

[thespeculator]

Originally Posted by Blaz

Aiming high: From the My Account, Deposit, selection *********** window:

Deposit Funds into your Betfair Account - ***********

Paysafecards are pre-paid payment cards for the Internet (similar to pre-paid telephone cards). Available over the counter at retailers across Europe, *********** can be bought in denominations of € 10, 25, 50 and 100 or £10, 25, 50 and 75 (at PayPoint outlets).

*********** can be used for depositing money into your Betfair account but not for withdrawing money from your Betfair account. Withdrawals from your Betfair account must be made by another method.

So yeah, I really can't. I can't find the exact quote but I believe you must be KVC-ed (verified) if you wish to deposit with Paysafe and therefore withdraw with another method.

What exactly do you mean by "rolled through". Betting the initial deposits ?

I have no intention of depositing money and not playing it since well, that's no way to make money

Also I would understand why someone (with lesser funds of course) would choose the action by the original poster.

You deposite 100€ to your account via international **********.

You play let's say two bets with 50 € and one wins with 200 € profit. You want to get that 200 € quickly BUT you haven't verified your international ********** and therefore cannot receive any money on it (so you could withdraw 100 to it).

What do you do ? You set up another payment method with 1€, withdraw it and therefore get another mean of withdrawl.

But yeah, it you a) can't provide KVC, b) are very very very impatient well things get harder for you.

Anyway thanks. I'll be in touch with BetFair again on this matter, so if I receive anything new I'll let you know.

EDIT: Their reply (which totally missed the point of the inquiry)

Please also note that deposits and withdrawals from your Betfair account are subject to our 'closed loop' policy. This policy means you must withdraw back to a method of payment at least the amount you deposited, before you are able to withdraw additional funds via another method.

EDIT, EDIT: Also if any UK heads care to do a more detailed telephone check up on this matter, it would be very appreciated. I need to wait until April for a new period since International calls are EXPENSIVE, yo.

EDIT, EDIT, EDIT: I deposited some funds via paysafecheck and I can access the bank transfer screen. I would transfer one euro via bank transfer just to check it out but I'm not sure if that would set any alarms. Paranoia ? Maybe

do you have to go through the whole kyc process, before you can get a payout,

[JBQB107]

dang..this whole thread just depresses me. I feel bad for the guy, but if he was trying to launder money, the only real penalty to stop people from doing that is take all his money he had in his account.. which sucks huge ****

[mirmiroa]

really strange story...even if you did sth illegal i dont understand why they r allowed to steal ur money...these money are yous only court could decide about them not bf....especially from bf i couldnt expect this behavour because they are reliable and have really good reputaniot....i have an account in euro for 3 years with bg discount and i use them daily and when i asked them if i can creat a new account in pounds theytold me that they could also transfer and my discount and everything ok...i have no complains about bf but this story really make me worry...

[Blaz]

Originally Posted by thespeculator

do you have to go through the whole kyc process, before you can get a payout,

I believe that somewhere says "You first need to get through the whole KYC before making withdrawls, if the deposit was done using ***********:

"I understand the closed loop but with *********** you can't withdraw. Even more, on your website it says

*********** can be used for depositing money into your Betfair account but not for withdrawing money from your Betfair account. Withdrawals from your Betfair account must be made by another method.

So I'm just wondering which method can I use ?"

Answer:
Thank you for your e-mail.

You can withdraw back to your account via a bank transfer. For all payment methods please visit payments.betfair.com.

[BigdaddyQH]

All of this is due to the ease in which money can be laundered at off shore books. You guys who will do anything to save a buck get what you pay for. It is on you to know the operating rules of the book you are dealing with. The more suspicious your actions are, the better chance you have of getting shafted. Some of you guys have to start thinking before you act.