HeroesCasino agrees to pay player frozen casino winnings

SBR Lou · 04-17-09 09:53 AM

HeroesCasino agrees to pay player frozen casino winnings

Heroes (SBR Rating C) tells SBR they have come to a financial agreement with their casino software provider that will result in the player receiving his full balance directly from the software company, Galewind Software. The player originally requested a withdrawal on December 6th but was denied.

Heroes stated that the player used software to exploit flaws in its casino software (SBR initial report) and would need to consult with third parties to verify. Heroes was unable to offer evidence of wrongdoing but concluded that card counting software was used and the winnings should not stand. Settlement offers were later discussed. SBR will update report when the player receives his check for $34,748 in winnings.

DIF · 04-17-09 10:01 AM

That sucks......play with them. If you lose everything is alright.

If you win, then what?? its wrong. lose-lose situation against you. I really hope they pay back to every player that lose too.

04-18-09 03:52 AM

Just wanted to clarify that the final winnings amounted to $38,928.

Justin7 · 04-18-09 08:37 AM

Card counting software? I thought it shuffled after every hand.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-18-09 09:34 AM

Not quite so random then :-)

04-22-09 09:46 PM

After not getting any resolution from Cyberluck after seven weeks, I submitted my case to Casinomeister's Pitch-A-Bitch dispute resolution. End result: Galewind, Heroes casino software provider, examined my play at Heroes by using an independent consultant. They determined I did not use a robot or such software in my play. Heroes still believed I did and did not want to pay me. Galewind ended their association with Heroes and they agreed to pay me themselves. I received their check this week.

More details at this Casinomeister thread, from page 18 on (if SBR don't mind): http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...ow-pay-18.html (I'm Westland Bowl there)

Galewind Software, casino provider of Pinnacle Sports, have been nothing short of professional in dealing with the Heroes situation and took upon themselves the responsibility of resolving my dispute with Heroes.

04-22-09 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Not quite so random then :-)

Galewind's software has been tested for randomness as explained here:http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post294509

To quote: "The next project Galewind Software requested was an audit of their Random Number Generator (RNG). It is not normally the case that a software maker would provide their proprietary source code. Galewind provided complete documentation to CFG summarizing the type of RNG they use, how they seed it, how it is implemented in their code, code fragments, and several other specifics that are not normally disclosed. This information, together with a signficant sample of data, allowed CFG to issue a letter of “RNG Certification” to Galewind Software. This letter, dated April 8, 2009, reads in part:

“In the opinion of Certified Fair Gambling, Galewind Software is correctly implementing … (undisclosed name of RNG)… in the creation of its RNG, is protecting and safeguarding the outcomes of its RNG, and is fairly using its RNG in the creation of all casino game products.”

tomcowley · 04-23-09 01:09 AM

Heroes should go straight to D- or lower. Who gives a **** if Cmdr Data is playing on the other end? It's your responsibility for what your casino software does, and if it truly is broken, pay the player and sue the provider. Heroes is running a total scam no matter what is going on.

RickySteve · 04-23-09 02:05 AM

I think I need my head examined for having the intense urge to wire these guys $5K. It's pure degeneracy the way I love sweating payouts.

04-23-09 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by RickySteve

I think I need my head examined for having the intense urge to wire these guys $5K. It's pure degeneracy the way I love sweating payouts.

I certainly would not go through this again:

I would not wait until my balance is over $30,000 to start a withdrawal
I would have all my documentation faxed, emailed, scanned, uploaded, updated, all taken care of asap
I would not bother with seeking dispute resolution with licensing authorities, unless they are in Gibraltar, Isle of Man, or Alderney
If the casino management speak in cryptic language or seem to stall for no reason, immediately start a dispute resolution process.

This was the first time I ever had a dispute with an online casino, so the hell I knew what I was doing.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-23-09 12:31 PM

Hope you get your money dude - even if Heroes do think the casino is exploitable that's their problem, they should get the cash back from the casino software people

Not that I believe you did this with pencil and paper though

Just not relevant, they should pay you regardless.

04-23-09 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Hope you get your money dude - even if Heroes do think the casino is exploitable that's their problem, they should get the cash back from the casino software people

Not that I believe you did this with pencil and paper though

Just not relevant, they should pay you regardless.

I did get paid, by Galewind. See post #6 above. And I didn't use pencils...I used pens.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-23-09 05:56 PM

Ahh good, I'm glad.

Curious though - isn't Galewind paying you an admission by them their software was faulty?

04-23-09 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Ahh good, I'm glad.

Curious though - isn't Galewind paying you an admission by them their software was faulty?

In post #7 above, there is a link to the detailed post from the representative of the company that tested Galewind's software. They concluded that it passed all randomness tests quite convincingly.

But Heroes management still believed that I had used a robot or some type of software that predicts trends or whatnot. They refused to pay regardless of the outcome of the testing of Galewind's software and the analysis of my play.

To quote from the post I mention above:

Heroes casino made the public statement that:

“The only way that these pattern recognition software would work is if there is either a weak RNG or some other part of the software was faulty.”

In the opinion of CFG, Galewind Software offers a fair and properly functioning product that shows no bias. The RNG is not weak and the software is not faulty.

In the opinion of CFG, the Player ...got lucky.

Galewind felt that I was entitled to my winnings, having won on their software which they stated to me that they stand behind it 100%. So they paid me after severing their relationship with Heroes Casino and Sportsbook.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-23-09 08:10 PM

Hrrrm, but why would they shell out all that cash when they owe you nothing?

Makes no sense - the opposite in fact, it suggests they are conceding they were at fault.

04-23-09 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Hrrrm, but why would they shell out all that cash when they owe you nothing?

Makes no sense - the opposite in fact, it suggests they are conceding they were at fault.

They paid because Heroes wouldn't fulfill their obligation to pay me. I thought I was making that clear.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-24-09 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by TheBettingMan

They paid because Heroes wouldn't fulfill their obligation to pay me. I thought I was making that clear.

You did, but that doesn't answer what I was saying. Why should they pay Heroes' debt? They owe you nothing. It's not like it's some small amount they can write off to a PR budget either.

04-24-09 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

You did, but that doesn't answer what I was saying. Why should they pay Heroes' debt? They owe you nothing. It's not like it's some small amount they can write off to a PR budget either.

That's the thing, HeeeHAWWW! Galewind DIDN'T have to pay Heroes' debt! Heroes was in the wrong but Heroes did not want to pay me because they believed that Galewind's software was faulty. But as shown in the link I posted in Post #7 above, Galewind's software was tested thoroughly and certified to be not faulty and is fair and properly functioning. The certification company even tested and examined my player logs and concluded that the software performed normally and as expected. However, no amount of proof and evidence that Galewind's software was not faulty was going to convince Heroes they should pay me.

Galewind ended their association with Heroes and decided that they would take the moral high ground and pay me on their own. Paying me bolsters their reputation among casino operators and their players that they stand behind their product 100% as Galewind's president told me himself. This also bolsters the reputation and confidence of their other licensees (like Pinnacle) and their players. As Galewind's president personally told me, they are very proud of their casino product. So it was in Galewind's moral, personal and professional interest to pay me, imo. Galewind holds themselves up to high standards and I'm glad they do!

(And no, they did not asked me to write this!)

Peep · 04-24-09 10:17 AM

So.

You were betting patterns in Blackjack to win as I remember.

Do you think these patterns still exist? Or that the software company got rid of them?

04-24-09 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Peep

So.

You were betting patterns in Blackjack to win as I remember.

Do you think these patterns still exist? Or that the software company got rid of them?

Maybe I see patterns where none exists but it worked for me at this particular casino at that particular time. I likely won't repeat it as it doesn't always work.

lucciferg · 04-24-09 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by TheBettingMan

Maybe I see patterns where none exists but it worked for me at this particular casino at that particular time. I likely won't repeat it as it doesn't always work.

So it wasn't truly random at the time you won, and the software was faulty? That explains why GaleWind would pay out, and why Heroes wouldn't. In fact, that explains it much more than the "moral" reason you cited. The "personal" and "professional" reasons would be to keep it quiet that the software was ever insufficiently random, even if it's fixed now.

Meant to say that, either way, obviously you won on the software provided so you should have been paid. But I can see why it was GaleWind's responsibility to pay you.

04-24-09 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by lucciferg

So it wasn't truly random at the time you won, and the software was faulty? That explains why GaleWind would pay out, and why Heroes wouldn't. In fact, that explains it much more than the "moral" reason you cited. The "personal" and "professional" reasons would be to keep it quiet that the software was ever insufficiently random, even if it's fixed now.

Meant to say that, either way, obviously you won on the software provided so you should have been paid. But I can see why it was GaleWind's responsibility to pay you.

As I mentioned in Post #18 above: "The certification company even tested and examined my player logs and concluded that the software performed normally and as expected."

They concluded that the software performed randomly at the time I won. Heroes didn't pay because they didn't want to. Hence, Galewind stepped in to pay me and end their relationship with Heroes. It wasn't because they were at fault, it was because Heroes didn't believe the certification results of Galewind's software. If you go to the link I provided in Post #7 above, you can read the post that the certifying company did explaining the background of the testing of Galewind's software.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-24-09 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by TheBettingMan

Galewind ended their association with Heroes and decided that they would take the moral high ground .....

Nice if true, but given it looks like a payment for fault it's rather counterproductive.

Other operators will now look as this incident and think that's exactly what it is. Not a smart business move from Galewind, regardless of what actually happened.

04-24-09 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Nice if true, but given it looks like a payment for fault it's rather counterproductive.

Other operators will now look as this incident and think that's exactly what it is. Not a smart business move from Galewind, regardless of what actually happened.

Believe what you want to believe, HeeeHAWWW. I believe there's something wrong with you.

HeeeHAWWWW · 04-24-09 01:46 PM

Ok, well I'll take childish remarks like that as a sign you're not interested in saying anything sensible, in which case not much point in me posting further.

04-24-09 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Ok, well I'll take childish remarks like that as a sign you're not interested in saying anything sensible, in which case not much point in me posting further.

It appears you don't recognize anything sensible when you see it. What do you think I've been trying to convey in the prior posts?

You don't believe that Galewind has the capability to act beyond and above their duty? If not, then certainly there isn't much point in posting further for either of us.

lucciferg · 04-24-09 02:09 PM

I think Heeee...'s point is that GaleWind has done much more than act "beyond and above their duty." By paying you the owed money, they've actually HARMED their business, not improved it, because it suggests to others in the industry that there WAS inadequate randomness in the software.... even if the tests show otherwise.

Just like how you said you look for patterns, but it passed a test for randomness. Why look for patterns and follow patterns at all if you're 100% that there couldn't possibly be any patterns? Your own views when using the software, taken with GaleWind paying out, undermine the amount of weight that can be placed on any testing they had done to verify their software.

I guess the point could be taken either way: either a small, new industry player that wants to create good press with players, or a small, new industry player that wants to help bury an error before Pinnies question their software. You take the former view. Others take the latter. What the majority thinks? Who knows.

04-24-09 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by lucciferg

I think Heeee...'s point is that GaleWind has done much more than act "beyond and above their duty." By paying you the owed money, they've actually HARMED their business, not improved it, because it suggests to others in the industry that there WAS inadequate randomness in the software.... even if the tests show otherwise.

Just like how you said you look for patterns, but it passed a test for randomness. Why look for patterns and follow patterns at all if you're 100% that there couldn't possibly be any patterns? Your own views when using the software, taken with GaleWind paying out, undermine the amount of weight that can be placed on any testing they had done to verify their software.

I guess the point could be taken either way: either a small, new industry player that wants to create good press with players, or a small, new industry player that wants to help bury an error before Pinnies question their software. You take the former view. Others take the latter. What the majority thinks? Who knows.

Well, then that doesn't bode well for the whole industry does it? If you can be certified random but not really be random, what then? This would not be unique to Galewind. I've won at Microgaming, RTG, Playtech, and others using pattern-recognition. But I lose just as often but I try to keep the losses small so I still use pattern-recognition because I'm still ahead. Apparently, I had one hell of a lucky streak at Galewind. Damn, if a drunk guy can win tens of thousands of dollars at blackjack at a Las Vegas casino by getting lucky, it can happen online too. (not that I was drunk at home!)

I certainly would like to see the posts of "others in the industry" who view Galewind paying me as an admission of fault. Everywhere else I've read nothing but kudos to Galewind for taking the stand to do the right thing if Heroes wasn't going to.

twister · 04-25-09 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by lucciferg

I think Heeee...'s point is that GaleWind has done much more than act "beyond and above their duty." By paying you the owed money, they've actually HARMED their business, not improved it, because it suggests to others in the industry that there WAS inadequate randomness in the software.... even if the tests show otherwise.

Just like how you said you look for patterns, but it passed a test for randomness. Why look for patterns and follow patterns at all if you're 100% that there couldn't possibly be any patterns? Your own views when using the software, taken with GaleWind paying out, undermine the amount of weight that can be placed on any testing they had done to verify their software.

I guess the point could be taken either way: either a small, new industry player that wants to create good press with players, or a small, new industry player that wants to help bury an error before Pinnies question their software. You take the former view. Others take the latter. What the majority thinks? Who knows.

Clearly you have no background in maths.

"Trends" can be found in any random data-set. ANY. Which is why those that are attuned to gambling mathematics will tell you to avoid datamining. Why? Because it is very easy, and very possible, to find meaningless (in the long run) trends in random data. What seems to be a predictive "system", ends up just being a lucky streak that will eventually end.

The OP probably thought he found a long term "trend", when all he did was get extremely lucky playing a "trend" that was in fact random data that repeated itself for a short period of time.

To give you an example of this using the simple coin analogy.

A coin is flipped, lands on heads. It is flipped another three times, lands on heads two times then on tails. The coin flips now stands at HHHT. A friend of the coinflipper comes along, and sees the previous results of the coinflip. He decides to sit and watch a bit longer. The next four flips produce HHHT again. Now the 8 flips look like they have a pattern; HHHTHHHT. For the next 3 flips, the friend bets that H will occur. H comes up all three times, the friend goes home happy because the coinflipper owes him money.

The coinflipper is pissed off, and thinks that the coin is not fair and decideds not to pay his friend. He complains to the coin company that they are producing lop-sided coins. The coin company decides to test the coin. The following results are HHHTHHTTHTTTHTHTHTTTTHTTTTTTHHHTTTHTTTHT THTHTTH. The coin company concludes that there is nothing wrong with their coin, and that the coinflipper is just being a tightass bitch because he lost a bet he thought he would win. As the coin company produces coins for a lot of coinflippers, and wants to back their product, they decide to pay off the friend as a testement to their product.

RickySteve · 04-25-09 12:39 PM

Maybe the coin is biased.

bluefish · 04-25-09 06:39 PM

SBR rating is C for a book that doesn't pay winnings. Need I say more about the validity of their rating system? All the sites are the same, crooks who get a handout.

Justin7 · 04-25-09 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by bluefish

SBR rating is C for a book that doesn't pay winnings. Need I say more about the validity of their rating system? All the sites are the same, crooks who get a handout.

I'll be very surprised if Heroes keeps its "C" rating much longer.

04-28-09 07:18 PM

My final report in this thread: SBR "C" rated book/casino stiffing a player for $34k

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