[bigboydan]

ToteSport (SBR rating B-) gives player wager he did not place

On January 17, 2009, a player wagered 125 Sterling on Wolverhampton +1 goal at the price of +433. After Wolverhampton covered, he found an email from Totesport telling him there was an "input error," commonly referred to as a "bad line" when talking about American sports. As a result of this "error" Totesport reversed the spread, changing his winning wager into a losing one. Totesport's terms and conditions allow it to adjust prices, but not spreads. When confronted with this fact by the player, it would not cite a rule allowing it to take this action. Totesport would not discuss the issue with SportsbookReview.

[tomcowley]

Yet another euro trash book destined for D-, and this one isn't even from Malta. Good luck with the gaming commission.

[Santo]

I know somebody who won a very similar case to this with IBAS. If the facts are as stated, I'd expect the same result.

The correct result is a voided bet, as in the game in question that price/spread would be a substantial margin off, whether it was pre-game or live.

[laconic]

Most books will have a palpable error rule. Totesport has too...

"totesport reserves the right to rectify mistakes and or adjust any price quoted in error."

IBAS will always judge on written rules. So, if the punter wants to pursue this, he will have to convince IBAS this was not a palpable error.

[fixxer]

This is a serious reason for a BIG downgrade.....

[Santo]

They have the right to void it, or to change the price. They don't have the right to move it from +1, to -1, under my interpretation of their rules.

The case I know of with IBAS related to another major UK bookie and a NBA spread where they had reversed the spread, corrected the reverse, and graded it as a loss. IBAS ruled they were to void it and refund the stake.

[laconic]

The case I know of with IBAS related to another major UK bookie and a NBA spread where they had reversed the spread, corrected the reverse, and graded it as a loss. IBAS ruled they were to void it and refund the stake.

That sounds like a fair result. From what you say about the degree of the mistake made on this bet, he probably knew he was taking a pop at them, in which case, he should expect settlement problems.

[citlec]

Wolves this season would have never been +1 at 4.33. They are top of the league so there is no way a team playing them would be about 1.30 to beat them.
When looking at that price it is clearly a error and they was right to void however it is wrong that they have changed the bet to -1 without asking the customer first if he wanted it changed to -1

[headgames]

Completely agree with the thoughts that the player really must have known he was taking a pop here even if you know only a slight amount about that league. Even so, the bet should either be voided completely or settled at the correct price rather to alter the bet like that to settle it as a loser.

[bigboydan]

I don't think anyone here feels this gentlemen didn't know exactly what he was doing in regards wagering like he did. The one thing I do have a problem with ToteSport is the fact that they won't even discuss this matter at all knowing full well that they are clearly in the wrong.

[Cyntax]

I know the player, his initials are A.W. (For mods to verify this update is true.)

Anyway an update maybe?

I know somebody who won a very similar case to this with IBAS. If the facts are as stated, I'd expect the same result.

IBAS gives Tote the right to change the winning wager from winning to losing.
Case closed, money gone forever.

Downgrade from B- to D-?

[Santo]

Is the player able to post and/or summarise the IBAS ruling - I'd be interested on the rationale for the decision.

Either way, I wouldn't agree with such a downgrade.

[moonbeam]

IBAS is a joke

[Santo]

As I said previously in this thread, I know of cases where they have ruled in favour of the player, so they're not completely useless. They are in part funded by player bodies these days, and have player representatives on the panel.

I won't make judgement on this one without seeing full facts and the rationale for their decision.

[moonbeam]

If you say this Santo, I believe it.

But I´m still waiting since 2 years for 1500 Euro sportingbet owes me. Do you think things getting better?

[Santo]

Your claim was rejected by IBAS? Again without details it's hard to tell why.

They will (like all official arbitration bodies) follow the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit when the two are in conflict, but in cases where bookies have clearly erred they have ruled in favor of the player.

Are the details of your case public somewhere?

[tomcowley]

And this is why bad regulation is worse than no regulation. Tote gets the right to steal under the color of law. I'd take this one to the courts and call every newspaper around.

There is absolutely no way that this is the correct decision, short of the player agreeing to the switch and then appealing after it lost, which I doubt.

[Casi]

Adjusting spreads of a placed wager = stealing.
Don´t care about any other stuff involved in this case, i would downgrade them to D for this alone. What a joke...

[moonbeam]

Your claim was rejected by IBAS? Again without details it's hard to tell why.

They will (like all official arbitration bodies) follow the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit when the two are in conflict, but in cases where bookies have clearly erred they have ruled in favor of the player.

Are the details of your case public somewhere?

I guess I post this case 2 years ago here.

It´s a bit difficult because of my lack of english

They voided a live-betting tennis wager with the statement, that the game has already begun

(but they wait 60 minutes until after the event has finished)

Ibas is not interested.

[Cyntax]

It was not me, I am not the player in this case. The player is my friend (AW).
I asked him if he kept the decision from IBAS, but he think he deleted that email. I will ask him to request the decison from IBAS again.

He said he has a user account on sbrforum. I will tell him to pop in and explain better for you. I guess you are intrested to know more about this comedy show.

Cheers.

[tomcowley]

Adjusting spreads of a placed wager = stealing.
Don´t care about any other stuff involved in this case, i would downgrade them to D for this alone. What a joke...

As I read it, it wasn't just adjusted (which is inexcusable), it was adjusted after the event finished.

[betpartners]

some of comments on here are just unbelievable, dumb is the word that springs to mind in big capital letters

Talking about downgarding the tote to D is laughable at best, they are a clear A book no ifs or buts.

And the guy trying to get Wolves at those odds +1 give me a break and get real, as false odds as you can and if you did not know that shopuld not be betting full stop.

The bias on here against Euro books which are clearly superior to offshore books is becoming a bore

Especially from those that have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Euro books.

[tomcowley]

The only thing that's clear is that you have no idea what being an A book means.

[betpartners]

You betray your ignorance with some of the stuff you come out with

If you dont want to show yourself up with silly remarks then i would suggest that you stick to what you know, you clearly know nothing about Euro books or you would never have made such comments.

If you want people to read your comments and respect what you say then speak with knowledge otherwise you just look foolish.

To call Totepsort Euro trash is clearly ignorant

If the hat fits

[tomcowley]

Do you think their decision/behavior in this case was correct and fair to the player?

[betpartners]

tomcowley my issue is with you calling totesport euro trash when they are not, they are a very highly respected book, they are owned by the British government and not shady private individuals etc, they are subject to laws like very few bookmakers on planet earth and have been round for decades.

Their history and reputation is second to none and so your throw away comment that they are just another euro trash book undermines your arguement in my opinion.

To state they are out of order or wrong in a particular case is justified if and i repeat if they do wrong, but euro trash? come on

Others jump on the bandwagon after comments like that saying rate them D etc, just silly talk that

With regards to this case, if it was rejected by IBAS and like another poster said i would like to see the ruling then my opinion is that tote acted correctly

But i would need to see the ruling to fully understand the whole case and not just one side of it.

But if tote do wrong i will say so, Betafir are an A rated book on here i beelive and their reputation is very high certainly in europe and yet i ahve had issues with them in the past.

Just because they are european or A rated wont stop me having a pop but i wont use sweeping comments based on one incident.

[Casi]

To call Totepsort Euro trash is clearly ignorant

If the hat fits

A book changing a placed wager (bad line or not!) after the event was setlled IS TRASH. As posted i don´t care about the rest, but maybe iam just spoiled by the Pinnys, MBs, Greeks or Wsexs´ of this world. Screw those Euro books...

[betpartners]

A book changing a placed wager (bad line or not!) after the event was setlled IS TRASH. As posted i don´t care about the rest, but maybe iam just spoiled by the Pinnys, MBs, Greeks or Wsexs´ of this world. Screw those Euro books...

Ignorance meet Casi

Casi meet Ignorance

Thought it was time you two met

[LT Profits]

Why is this any different from any other "off" line? The bet should simply be voided regardless of result, unless there is something I am missing.

That said, it also seems to me the player knew exactly what he was doing too, so it is hard to feel compassion for him. Still, all "North American" A books would have voided this bet, and I don't know why Tote should be any different.

[tomcowley]

Assume the following two facts are true. The player bet the bad line. The book changed the handicap on the bet without the player's permission (or prior consent to handle a repeat case this way). Assuming that this complaint to IBAS actually exists, it's highly unlikely that either of those statements are false.

Nothing else is relevant to the proper decision, although it's even worse if it's after the event is over. Given those two facts, is their decision/behavior correct and fair to the player? That's a yes or no question. If you refuse to answer it as such, assume ANYTHING you want, in addition to those two facts, and give a scenario where Tote's action is correct and fair to the player.

Being subject to laws or a function of government is hardly a guarantee of honesty- using that argument on an american these days is hilarious, both in and out of gambling- and being subject to bad laws and incompetent or corrupt oversight is WORSE than being subject to nothing and having to survive on reputation without fraudulent government approval.

[betpartners]

tomcowley its all relevant to this discussion how one reacts to part of the story with such comments and trying to put me on the spot by asking me to say yes or no to a set of assumptions just masks that.

But i will play along

If i get your question right and in the scenario you provide a player takes a clearly wrong line and the bookies then corrects that line without asking the players permission?

Is that what you want me to say yes or no to?

Bookie is right only if its in the terms and conditions that they are allowed to do that, if it is not covered then they are not.

Bookies should always offer the player the option to take the bet at the correct line or void if it is not covered by a rule.

What are the rules in this case? did the bookies offer the player that opportunity, did the bookies even have to?

I doubt very much that IBAS would rule against a player if this was not covered by rules.

Now back to what we were discussing

Amercians may well have a low opinions of laws and i am not sure Europeans have any higher opinions but that misses the point, you really need to understand how the British sytem works.

The Tote is different to Ladbrokes, Corals and William Hills, MPs in England would love nothing more than to have a pop at the Tote because they are government owned, the tote gets away with a lot less than any of the A rated European books on here.

Thpugh i do agree that is no gauarntee off honesty, but the Tote is reknowned as a honest trustworthy book and you will find very few people that know of the Tote in Europe that will have a bad word to say about them

They are above reproach and are a book that can be trusted 100% to say otherwise is i am sorry to say wrong

To pick on one case that they may not even be wrong in and to call them euro trash and that they should be D rated as i ahve said just undermines all your other arguements

You cannot try to opine about one part in a mature manner but talk trash in another and not expect one to ahve an impact on the other.

[tomcowley]

But i will play along

If i get your question right and in the scenario you provide a player takes a clearly wrong line and the bookies then corrects that line without asking the players permission?

Is that what you want me to say yes or no to?

Bookie is right only if its in the terms and conditions that they are allowed to do that, if it is not covered then they are not.

It's not. That was covered earlier int he thread.

Bookies should always offer the player the option to take the bet at the correct line or void if it is not covered by a rule.

What are the rules in this case? did the bookies offer the player that opportunity, did the bookies even have to?

Their rules don't allow them to change the handicap. Even if they did, the book is still wrong to have those rules. To draw an analogy with something only a tiny bit more serious, various countries have death penalty for renouncing islam. No rational westerner would rate those countries A+ on rights, even if they follow their own laws perfectly.

Though i do agree that is no gauarntee off honesty, but the Tote is reknowned as a honest trustworthy book and you will find very few people that know of the Tote in Europe that will have a bad word to say about them

They are above reproach and are a book that can be trusted 100% to say otherwise is i am sorry to say wrong

You're not even trying. You agree they cheated a player (if complaint is accurate) and refuse to rectify it, and at the same time say they're above reproach and can be trusted 100%. I'll prop bet you. Given that this complaint to IBAS actually exists, I will prop bet that the following 3 things are all true:

1) The player bet what Tote considered to be a bad line
2) Tote changed the handicap of the wager without explicit permission from the player.
3) Tote had no rule that allowed them to explicitly change a handicap (only a price).

If you think tote can be trusted 100%, this obviously didn't happen, so put your money where your mouth is. Name the amount and we can talk escrow.

[betpartners]

I never said it was not untrue at any point but you are so good tomcowley twisting away and hoping that you can cover up your comments with say yes or no, i will bet you this and that, wow used to do that as a kid.

You use all sort of examples and scenarios to back up an arguement you make which reeks of the attitude "by all means neccasary"

You my friend said another euro trash bookie and that is what i took issue with nothing else just that and "by all means neccasary" you will now try to justify that and turn this completely around.

Means shit that they are owned by the UK government, means shit that they are subject to UK law, means shit that they are subject to IBAS arbitration, means shit that they are one of the worlds oldest bookmakers with hundreds and hundreds of shops and are trusted 100% by millions of people

Cant be trusted because Americans dont trust the law, rules mean shit because in some arab country you can be executed for renouncing Islam, give me a bloody break

look i am not going to get involved in an endless flaming session with you, you have a poor opinion about european books, you brand them all the same, you shout off all the time downgrade them they are trash and someone that does that all the time just will never listen to reason.

Tote is nowhere near a bad book, they are one of the most highly trusted books in the world and believe it or not there is a world outside the narrow vision anti european bookies forum called sbrforum.

Europeans dont trust poorly regulated offshore slow payment books and you dont trust highly regulated subject to the law, transparently owned UK books

Lets leave it at that hey and i will just learn to ignore your shouting off about european books all the time.

[tomcowley]

That's like being the world's best dung sculptor. No matter how good you are, your work is still sh1t.

I have far more trust that I will be treated fairly by Greek, Bookmaker, BetJam, Matchbook, and even most B or better books, than I do that I'll be treated fairly by euro crap that hides behind regulation. Why? Because the books I listed subscribe to a higher standard of conduct. It's as simple as that. Unregulated offshores don't HAVE to do anything- but they've built their business and reputation on playing fairly, and in many cases, have 5-year + histories of not screwing anybody. None of them would even contemplate pulling the stunt tote pulled or mess with wagers in any way (other than voiding obv bad lines). Jazette doesn't even try that trick. When disputes arise with those 4 books, they're virtually guaranteed to be settled fairly, because those books work with mediators like SBR who are competent and who expect books to have a higher standard of conduct and fairness than LGA and IBAS demand- case history proves that unequivocally.

But whatever, you believe that books can and should do anything that the law allows, and that they're absolutely A+++++ as long as they follow published rules (that are completely unfair to players) and don't get slapped down by regulators. I don't even know how to argue with that ignorance. You can have books who obey obviously unfair rules (or just make them up), or you can have books who abide by SBR's much higher standards of fairness- who abide by what the rules for fairness SHOULD BE, not by whatever crap they make up. It's not close. You simply can't have any experience with how disputes resolve here with good books, and what lengths the books go to to treat players fairly. If you actually had that experience, and then saw crap like the tote stunt, you'd just laugh at them because their conduct is a complete joke at the level that just doesn't happen at anything but the worst offshores.

Or the short version- you have absolutely no clue how good the top offshores are, and you can't believe that they're light-years ahead of euro books. They are that good and they are that far ahead.