[lost4]

Hello,

I am new to the forum and want to discuss my case here since my complaint did not show any result for the last two weeks.


On September 2nd, I found some attractive odds at TheGreek for "Top 5 Finishers" of the Omega European Masters. (Golf tournament, September 4th to 7th).
There were three players with odds +6600.
I bet one of them (Raphael Jacquelin) with 5 Euros.

One day later these odds were still the same.
So I bet another 10 Euros on Jacquelin and the maximum amount of EUR 172.74 on Gary Orr.

Another day later I found my bets pending while the offer had disappeared because the tournament started.

After the first day of the tournament new odds for the winner were offered and I placed another bet.

All my bets were still pending when the tournament ended with Gary Orr finishing 3rd. So that bet had won EUR 11,400.84.

About an hour after the end of the tournament I received an email from TheGreek. It said that my bets on Gary Orr and Raphael Jacquelin were cancelled because of an "obvious" error.

They refer to this rule:"The Greek Sportsbook reserves the right to refuse or limit any wager. This may include, but not limited to past-posted plays, obvious line errors, or exceeded bet limit amounts."


The only reason they name for calling it an obvious error is the difference between +6600 and the correct odds.
But I am not their oddsmaker, so I could not know if it is an error.
Three players with odds +6600 in a list of about thirty players does not seem obviously wrong to me.


Furthermore, their rule talks about refusing a wager. My wager has not been refused. It has been kept pending until it was decided. In my opinion that rule does not allow to delete a bet after it has won.


Any discussion was completely blocked by Wally from TheGreek. Instead he threatened me with closure of my account if I bet another line like that.

[Stifter]

Hi Lost4,

This is a very sad story. You obvious saw great value on this particular bet and tried to make some money with it. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but the bookmaker thinks different.

I guess almost all bookmakers have rules like you mentioned :"clear error in odds" or "clear typing mistake",like 10bet and Betsson often do, and we all know this is a crap-excuse, but you agreed to those rules when signing up. All in all very harsh, but not much can be done IMO.

When this Gary Orr were not in the top5 at the end, bet was lost, stake were taken by The Greek and than it was certainly not a "typing error" by them.

I wish you the best of luck against this crook actions by The Greek!

[fiveteamer]

If it is a bad line, how can they hang a bad line for what seems to be over a day?

And then threaten a guy when he bets it.

I don't get it.

[cinpls081]

Well clearly if the odds were wrong the book as the right to cancel the wager. Most times this is very clear as a 7 point dog becomes a 7 point fav. My guess is these odds were in fact wrong. 66-1 to finish in the top 5 is most clearly a mistake in a field of 30 players. My guess is 66-1 was the odds to win and they made a mistake. At the time I'm sure you must have looked around and what were other shops offering. I happen to completly disagree with this type of behavior but when you click yes to the terms and conditions you agree to the rules and basiclly allow the book to do anything they want to do.

The question is were the odds clearly wrong. I vote for yes in this sitation because I know Orr is a good player and I'm quite certain that 66-1 is just to long of a number for this...my gut tells me you know this also....

[RickySteve]

Did you file a dispute with SBR?

[Santo]

What were the winning odds on the player at Betfair or other bookies? +6600 (or 66/1) would be about the right odds Top 5 for a player who was 265-1 (+26500) to win the tournament.

[tomcowley]

Greek should produce the odds. It's easy to see if they added up to 5 winners or 1 winner. Threatening the player is just absurd though. One of my friends bet a line, then bet it again at better odds, and got bitched out because he "should have known better" after the line monkey moved the line the wrong way. Wally should spend his time bitching at line managers, not at players for.. placing bets.

[Mudcat]

Wally is the ultimate no-nonsense guy who doesn't mess around.

For me, The Greek has been one of the best books for accepting responsibility for bad line postings. I recall a situation where they let me keep a bet at +130 that should have been -130.

I suppose you could always file an SBR complaint but the vibe I get is it wouldn't have much of a chance. Those "obvious line error" clauses are always sketchy but they're a part of life if you bet on-line. Hopefully you were just taking a shot at the lines and not using them as half of an arb because I guess that would have cost you a bit wherever you were covering them off.

[durito]

Originally Posted by cinpls081

My guess is these odds were in fact wrong. 66-1 to finish in the top 5 is most clearly a mistake in a field of 30 players. My guess is 66-1 was the odds to win and they made a mistake. .

there were 156 players entered in this event. orr had one previous top 5 in the last two years.

[Santo]

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Orr was 66-1 to win, so 16.5-1 Top 5 or +1650. +6600 is thus obvious error.

[kiwi]

Obvious error or not: Sportsbooks have to cancel bets _before_ the start of events and not wait if the bets win or not and then decide to cancel them in case of a win. That's absolutely not acceptable.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Would be interesting to see their change in odds after the bet was taken. If they changed back to correct odds, clearly they had spotted the error and should have voided then.

[Bill Dozer]

lost4,
We still have a call planned to mgt. to look at the details. I will update you later today.

[lost4]

Originally Posted by Santo

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Orr was 66-1 to win, so 16.5-1 Top 5 or +1650. +6600 is thus obvious error.

Do you think I always have to compare the odds to other bookies to ensure it is not an obvious error?
In my opinion "obvious" errors can be detected without comparison.

And remember, it was not only Orr with +6600, but at least two other players. Three times the same obvious error? Very impropable.
And these three obvious errors persisted all Tuesday and Wednesday.
How can it happen that nobody notices these obvious errors for days?
And that nobody gets alarmed when a player bets the maximum amount on these odds? In most cases odds are changed when the maximum has been bet.

How can they call it obvious when they needed 5 days and a win of EUR 11,000 to notice it?

[fiveteamer]

[bigboydan]

First off, Welcome to the SBR forum sir

It does sound like you bet into a bad line, however you are always welcome to fill out a complaint form.

[Tosser]

It is sorta hard to know what is an obvious error and what not, on such events..
bad behaviour by the greek, cancelling it shortly before it would have won.

VERY bad for an A+ book

[Santo]

Not really. Golf is a major market with European books, there are probably 50+ places with these events priced up.

Sorry, but I can't agree with anyone who thinks they should have stood this. Had they noticed it, then of course they should have cancelled it in advance (and if they moved the price, that would be compelling evidence and the player may have a case), but if the error was not noticed until grading then I don't hold them responsible for paying out at +6600 instead of +1650. Had they been 25-1 then possibly, 20-1 definitely, but not 66-1. Now, if you were to suggest they should pay out at fair/correct market odds (16.5-1), or just over to compensate, I would agree with that.

[noyb]

Originally Posted by Santo

. Now, if you were to suggest they should pay out at fair/correct market odds (16.5-1), or just over to compensate, I would agree with that.

i agree.

i don't believe the poster didn't know the odds were wrong, and I would be more sympathic if he would admit this and not continue to play dumb.

on the other side: the trader from greek should have actually done his work properly and should have spotted the error long before the tournament began.

if they had voided the bet pre-tournament, there wouldn't be a case. they didn't, the least the Greek should do is pay this guy the market value at the time he placed the bet (and stop pretending like there's no foul on their part).

[cinpls081]

The odds are clearly wrong. I don't agree with the clause but we all check off the box and let the book become the jury. The fact is the odds were wrong. My guess is that the player knew this. I have no problem trying to make this type of wager but you have to understand that sometimes they cancel these sorts of wagers. Gl getting paid but I feel like you knew the odds were wrong.

Those of you that think the books have to cancel before game starts are just wrong sorry.

[Tosser]

They DO have to cancell it before the game starts.
If they are free to wait, and check if it will loose or might win, that is the behaviour of scam books.

Also they are simply not doing their homework, why even bring up odds for events when they do not check them at least once for errors?
That is just silly, and Wally acting like a dick and even threating the guy who took the line fits him well that motha****a..

[Thremp]

Wally has been taking notes from Tony.

[Santo]

Most places will warn you if you bet a bad line that if you keep doing it they'll ban you. Perfectly reasonable behaviour in principle, the tone of it of course we can't know (but given the players pretence he didn't know it was a bad line, I'm not that inclined to believe his recollection of the tone either).

[kiwi]

Originally Posted by Santo

Sorry, but I can't agree with anyone who thinks they should have stood this. Had they noticed it, then of course they should have cancelled it in advance (and if they moved the price, that would be compelling evidence and the player may have a case), but if the error was not noticed until grading then I don't hold them responsible for paying out at +6600 instead of +1650.

If a sportsbook cancels bets after the start of the event they can simply let it stand if the bets are losing and only cancel them if they win. That is why I think it is inacceptable in any case to cancel bets after the start of an event. If a sportsbook doesn't realize a bet which is accepted since days is an obviuos error the book is responsible.

[fiveteamer]

Originally Posted by Thremp

Wally has been taking notes from Tony.

LOL

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Tosser

That is just silly, and Wally acting like a dick and even threating the guy who took the line fits him well that motha****a..

I get where you're coming from but I can understand Wally's position too. He must have weaselly, lying, ill-mannered scammers talking to him like he's the biggest idiot in the world every day of his life.

I couldn't do his job. If it was part of my daily routine to have weasels trying to scam me, and then when they got busted, instead of taking it like a man they run to a forum acting like a victim, lying about the details, trying to discredit my honest business - like, "How dare you stop me from cheating you!" - man, I'd want to track them down and go where they live/work and tell everyone they know what they're all about. (I feel a Seinfeld episode coming on.)

I see them on the forums all the time and at least I can just say, "Yeah right," and ignore them - but Wally has some responsibility to take them seriously and deal with them. I can see how he would get very jaded and impatient.

I'm not saying this particular complainant is one of those people. I have no idea. My brain is trained to assume new posters like this are always leaving out an important detail or two.

But I don't know - I'm just saying in general.

[durito]

the greek canceled a losing wager of mine after the event had finished because it was a past post (i didn't realize it, i forgot my internet gameplan feed is 5 minutes behind)

[tomcowley]

What's a book supposed to do in a case like this? It's pretty clear that they had odds for a 1-pay market and had to payout on a 5-pay, for something like a -400% hold. Yes, it's the book's fault, but if the book were responsible for every typo (ever see +1110 instead of +110 at pinnacle or cris, or +45 on a 2h instead of +4.5?), they'd lose a chunk of money if a few max bets snuck in. Their reasonable defenses would be to offer fewer selections, delay bets, etc, which would suck for everybody. When real books have the out of voiding a truly bad line (which this almost certainly was), it's good for everybody. When scam dumps like 10bet void over line moves or stale lines, or books void only the winning futures, it's not.

What's needed is a better definiton of what an obviously bad line is. Stale numbers should always be fair game. Perhaps any number that has always had either: 1) an implied win% 15% different from the market (enough to cover mislisting football -3/+3), or 2) an implied win% a factor of 3 different from the market (to cover longshots) could qualify as obviously bad.

[kiwi]

Originally Posted by tomcowley

What's a book supposed to do in a case like this? It's pretty clear that they had odds for a 1-pay market and had to payout on a 5-pay, for something like a -400% hold. Yes, it's the book's fault, but if the book were responsible for every typo (ever see +1110 instead of +110 at pinnacle or cris, or +45 on a 2h instead of +4.5?), they'd lose a chunk of money if a few max bets snuck in.

Yes, right, but what if a bettor makes a typo and plays a bet by accident he had never played intentionally? He will also lose a 'chunk of money' and has no right to cancel the bet at all.

But at least what Durito wrote that TheGreek also cancelled a losing bet speaks in favour of the book.

[tomcowley]

Actually you can call and cancel at greek if the line hasn't moved.

[VegasDave]

Why didn't they cancel this BEFORE it the tourney was finished? If it was a bad line, fine, cancel it. But waiting until it is over to cancel it almost seems like they were freerolling.

[kiwi]

Originally Posted by tomcowley

Actually you can call and cancel at greek if the line hasn't moved.

It is a general problem that books can cancel bad lines but players cannot cancel wrong bets. I was not only speaking of TheGreek which is an exception.

Most rules favour the books, so at least they should cancel bets before the starts of the games if at all they have the right to correct their mistakes (as I said players don't have the right most of the time to correct their mistakes).

[ico2525]

Originally Posted by kiwi

Obvious error or not: Sportsbooks have to cancel bets _before_ the start of events and not wait if the bets win or not and then decide to cancel them in case of a win. That's absolutely not acceptable.

I agree. That's the bottom line. If they make an error, they may cancel your bet and e-mail or call you immediately notifying you of the situation. They can't wait over a day, wait until this bet would have been a winner and then cancel it. You know damn right that if the bet had lost, nothing would have happened. They would have taken your money, and this thread would have never existed.

[bettilimbroke999]

Very shady of the greek, almost as if they intentionally posted bad lines to take a freeroll, they should at least pay the guy off on the true odds since they let the bet stand for 5 days, had they cancelled it before the tournament or at least during the first couple days I might understand but AFTER the bet is a winner cancelling it, hmmm very shady

[shipitkthx]

Originally Posted by ico2525

You know damn right that if the bet had lost, nothing would have happened. They would have taken your money, and this thread would have never existed.

This is the exact thing that anyone defending The Greek needs to realize.