[Mudcat]

I don't know if this topic will go anywhere but I just had what I thought was an interesting question in the middle of a thread and I didn't want to hijack it. I hope you don't mind me doing this RS (although if you do, it's too late ).

Originally Posted by RickySteve

To Mudcat:

I respect your posts and you appear to be a winner at this. Hence I'm curious how every book discussion, from DSI to the squarest of the square, includes you saying, "Always had a good experience and never been collared there." I confuzed.

You have given me a chuckle. I have seen your posting for a long time - and you clearly know what you are talking about - but you have many times made me think, 'How are you having issues at so many book that seem so friendly to me?'

Not just you by any means. I hope this discussion if there is to be one, can be about principles, not personalities.

I'm not sure what is most relevant for me to say. I just place bets. 99% over the internet. 98% full-game bets (although there have been times I have had more focus on props and 2nd halves etc. Not lately though). Not always but usually I place my bets comfortably before game time. If I ever make a steam play, it is accidental.

But I do play the softest lines. I frequently bet up to the max. I take full advantage of bonuses - and don't shy away from "all-in" bets. I frequently make bets in odd dollar amounts.

I think I am fairly adept at knowing when to get out of books. I pay close attention to this forum. As silly as it can get at times, this forum is a hugely valuable resource and no other forum comes close for industry discussion. So with the good information, I am usually able to sniff out when trouble is brewing and leave while my personal experience still has been good.

The only places I have been collared are places that collar everyone. Bet365 (although it took a couple years). Remember BCN and US Sportsbook? They booted me. I think that's it. Maybe I'm forgetting someone.

(To be defensive for just a moment: I would strongly disagree that I always say I had a good experience everywhere. I believe my post immediately prior to this was describing my ongoing problem with BetMania. I have done more than my share of bitching and moaning about software issues and bad policies. I advocate for players when I see books behaving unethically. I have been critical of books [see recent posts about WagerWeb and Bet Atlas] all over the place going back to the start of this forum - and to other forums for years before that.)

But I always try to be honest. If I say I haven't personally had a problem somewhere, it is not an attempt to discredit people who have. But it probably seems that way. Basically it amounts to me saying, "No, the sportsbook is fine; it must be you." But again, I just try to be honest. My experience is part of the big picture and that's what I want this forum to be about.




Okay so let's turn it around. There are quite a few players who post here who seem to have problems with a lot of books. What are you doing differently than what I'm describing here? Is there anything we can teach each other about what works and what doesn't work? Or is it a case of books being unreasonable and I am just very lucky? (Or maybe I am getting into an area people just don't want to discuss on an open forum. I guess we'll see about that.)

[moonbeam]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

What gets players collared/booted at sportsbooks?

I´m also very interested in this question.

I guess this is a mysterious thing.

Everyone have some clue, but nobody really knows

[katstale]

Come on Cat?? Tell the truth--can you really place a bet at 5Dimes for over $50?

I never met a big time player that can answer that ? yes!!

[Tosser]

This is easy...hammering steam (scalp lines), and betting the maximum amount.
Usually combined with winning most of those bets.

Also so called "double hits".

[moonbeam]

Originally Posted by Tosser

This is easy...hammering steam (scalp lines), and betting the maximum amount.
Usually combined with winning most of those bets.

Also so called "double hits".

Sure, this is partly right. But unfortunately its not that easy.

[Stumpage]

Hit an obviously soft line and there's a pretty good chance you'll be shown the door as well.....

[cinpls081]

Who cares how much you bet. Bet an NFL game for 10K they want that biz. Now bet a quarter line for 500 make a futures bet that has the wrong odds and you are toast.

If you are gambling they could care less how much you bet. Once the odds are in your favor thats it your out. If you are gambling in the long run you lose. If your a shark and look at all the bets on the board and just make bets on not what you think will win but WRONG numbers your out.

[vanman]

If you`re an arber you stand out like a sore thumb.Bookies hate arbers

[moonbeam]

Originally Posted by vanman

If you`re an arber you stand out like a sore thumb.Bookies hate arbers

Of course.

But nearly every book limited you whether you´re an arber or not.

[TLD]

I would think large size steam bets are what will get you booted fastest. Especially if you’re not following steam but are anticipating it and so getting your bet in before their line has adjusted. They figure you’re part of the syndicate making the play, or at least that you have access to enough information about the syndicate plays early enough to damage them. If you’re consistently timing your bets so as to get +4 on games that then close at 3 or 2.5, you’re not a desirable customer.

Next would be making a substantial profit on offbeat stuff or “loss leader” type stuff without also giving the book a lot of action on things where they have the edge against you. For example, I’ve done very well against all the places that have offered juice free 7-1 parlays, but have typically then been taken off them—if not booted from the book entirely—fairly quickly. Similarly if you’re making all your money at props, obscure sports, the subset of teasers they consider themselves vulnerable on, etc.

Next would be just making a lot of money period. A professionally run book certainly should not boot such players, but I think lesser books often base their decisions purely on this crude factor of how much the player is up or down against them overall. SIA is known for this for instance (though I will say I wasn’t booted from there until I was up quite a bit more than the figures that are usually speculated about as being their cut off figure). The (dumb) philosophy here being “We don’t know that he’s necessarily doing anything that puts us at a disadvantage, but the fact that he’s up so much on us indicates he might well be, so why take a chance?”

I disagree, by the way, that the size of your wagers is irrelevant. If you’re making a couple of $20 bets a week, no one cares if you’re exploiting only positive EV opportunities. Their likelihood of restricting you or showing you the door is a function of both how you’re betting and how much you’re betting.

[Tosser]

Originally Posted by TLD

I would think large size steam bets are what will get you booted fastest. Especially if you’re not following steam but are anticipating it and so getting your bet in before their line has adjusted. They figure you’re part of the syndicate making the play, or at least that you have access to enough information about the syndicate plays early enough to damage them.

Nah they just think you are using Pinny and a line service, no syndicates needed to bet steam.
There are so few players that bet those lines before they move at the major books...and they surely do not bet at crap or small books first.
A few books can live with the action, mainly the books that move the lines themselves (Pinny, CRIS), they even want you to bet it, or big books like Wsex that will move the line automatically after big bets and do not care about a few scalpers getting a bet in.

But all the smallers books fear that scalpers following Pinny or others will be too successful, so they kick you out or limit to nothing.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Contrast between Carib and a couple others over last month:

Carib: net +$4k. Limited first to $500, then to $250
Betjam: up a similar amount, no limits at all.
Beted: up $3k, no limiting. Their mlb limits are $500 to start with though


Not chasing steam, arbing, or anything dodgy, just had a really good month (mostly mlb, almost entirely straight moneylines, no props). Maybe my carib bets are nearer their max limits, but that's more cos Betjam's limits are above my max stake size than anything.

Thus: Carib don't like winners, and aren't confident enough in their lines to think they'll make it back off me. Of course, that's self-fulfilling, since their limits just meant I emptied my account.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Actually, just figured out what Carib didn't like: won 7 in a row. Now that's just sheer blind luck, and any experienced book surely knows that. Grrrr.

[Peep]

Being a consistent winner will do it at most.

I have been been booted / soft booted at at least four (probably more, who cares). I never bet steam.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by katstale

Come on Cat?? Tell the truth--can you really place a bet at 5Dimes for over $50?

I never met a big time player that can answer that ? yes!!

I don't know if I'm a big-time player but my answer is yes.

And 5 Dimes is a book where I have done a lot of betting on the more oddball stuff like set betting in tennis and specific outcomes in boxing - where it should have been pretty obvious I was arbing.

I swear, most of these books that there is so much bitching about just don't seem so bad to me.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by vanman

If you`re an arber you stand out like a sore thumb.Bookies hate arbers

I think that is true. I sometimes think that if a book ever wanted to crack down arbers, they should hire me because I could pick them off in 2 seconds (not that I would take the job).

Maybe the most important point I can contribute to this discussion is to learn how to do everything. Don't just arb. Don't just bonus scalp. Learn how to straight bet. I think if I knew how to play steam, I would only make selected plays once in awhile.

Maybe the reason I can keep a lower profile is I mix it up and don't leave a pattern.

[Mudcat]

Some interesting discussion here.

I wonder how much of an effect giving/taking referral bonuses can have. I would think that, depending on whom you use as a referrer, you could be giving yourself a red flag before you have even placed a wager.

[ico2525]

If your limits get cut, does that mean they call you less? Man, I don't know why I give some of these books my real phone number.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Lol, nice timing. Logged onto beted, and....


As per the Accounts Manager, a decision to lower this accounts' wagering limits has been made to allow a maximum wager of:$25.00


Of course, now they've essentially closed my account, they'll still charge me $90 withdrawal fees.

[Tosser]

BetEd is as square as they get

[moonbeam]

Originally Posted by cinpls081

Who cares how much you bet. Bet an NFL game for 10K they want that biz. Now bet a quarter line for 500 make a futures bet that has the wrong odds and you are toast.

If you are gambling they could care less how much you bet. Once the odds are in your favor thats it your out. If you are gambling in the long run you lose. If your a shark and look at all the bets on the board and just make bets on not what you think will win but WRONG numbers your out.

I think that´s a really good description

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by HeeeHAWWWW

Lol, nice timing. Logged onto beted, and....


As per the Accounts Manager, a decision to lower this accounts' wagering limits has been made to allow a maximum wager of:$25.00


Of course, now they've essentially closed my account, they'll still charge me $90 withdrawal fees.

What?!?! BetEd is the #1 ranked book at Covers! They must be awesome!

Kidding. Well not about them being #1 at Covers. They are that.

I haven't played at BetEd - they don't allow Canadian accounts - but from what I've heard they are one of those books that slashes limits simply for winning, like the situation I had with BCN and US Sportsbook. You don't have to be playing steam or anything.

It is not a business policy I like or admire - and judging by the current non-existence of BCN and US Sportsbook, I'm not sure how much of a formula for success it is - but at least with forums like this, we can usually know what to expect going in.

[moonbeam]

Originally Posted by ico2525

If your limits get cut, does that mean they call you less? Man, I don't know why I give some of these books my real phone number.