[jason]

I log into my YouWager account Saturday night, and see a 0 balance.

I call First Fidelity and speak to Nate (and some assistants) who tell me that earlier that day the $7,700 was transferred to another YouWager player named Thomas Kendzlik.
After researching the account with Nate, First Fidelity tells me that the call for the transfer came from a phone #:
(412) 221-7392 – the same phone # as the one on Tomas Kendzlik’s account.
The IP address that this all came from was 67.186.139.214 – also in Pennsylvania and the one that was used by Thomas Kendzlik.

The player gets on a 3 way call and tells me and Nate that I am his agent from BetonStars. I am dumbfounded by the whole situation.

I call BetonStars. They tell me that I stiffed them for $8,000 as an agent, and I have come to learn that the owner of BetonStars referred to me in this forum.

After looking at this further, BetonStars gave me the IP address from which they had dealt with “me” as an agent --
IT MATCHES the account at First Fidelity registered to this person Thomas Kendzlik.
BetonStars then also told me that then told me that when they sent “me” money, they were told to send it ** to the name Thomas Kendzlik in Pennsylvania.

Coincidentally, Bill Dozer has spoken to the person who owns the email address of the First Fidelity account – BadGuy1122. Bill yesterday listened to tapes of the conversations between the person posing as me to BetonStars and BetonStars representatives. Bill confirmed that the person posing as me as an agent for BetonStars was the same person that Bill spoke to, Thomas Kendzlik.

As it stands now I hope to convince First Fidelity that I am a victim and their transfer system facilitated an $8,000 theft from my account.

I should note that although I have no idea how this person knew I had a First Fidelity account and how he gained my account ID there, I do know that my password was the same as my BetonStars password, and therefore unsecure.
I advise all players to use a unique password for each sportsbook account immediately.

PS:
As if this story wasn’t strange enough, we just found out that the only Thomas Kendzlic (spelled with a c at the end of the name and not a k) in Pennsylvania is showing as deceased in 1998, which only perpetuates the idea that this individual specializes in ID theft.

[Illusion]

That's one messed up story. I hope everything works out. By the way, welcome to SBR.

[isetcap]

Is it OK to lynch people in Pennsylvania?

[SBR_John]

hmp hmp.. thats a depressing read.

I'm going to talk to Bill and get some more info on this before I say more because as bad as a story as it is there are some holes. Even with the possible holes this shows at an absolute bare minimum FF absolutely has to tighten up their controls. Shot taking or no shot taking this is BS.

[marc]

Here is what I think happened. Jason get's into a dispute with Betonstars. Has a fight with one of the clerks there. Clerk later gets in a fight with one of the managers or owner of BOS and leaves BOS. Clerk then teams up with a player to screw both BOS and Jason. He gives the player all of Jason's info, then he calls a firned of his at BOS and tells them that he has an agent for them. THis guy poses as Jason, speaks to Sean at BOS who wasn't around when Jason was there and was unaware of the bonus dispute and sets up an agent account, and proceeds to stiff BOS for 15k.

Then this player also, just for fun call around other sportsbooks posing as JAson and tries to see if using his BOS password,if he can get into any of Jason's other spokrtsbok accounts. Eventually he tries youwager (my guess is that he called every book advertised at tow), and he hits paydirt. HE logs in and out of jason's acocunt over the course of a few weeks. COuld well be he was never really sure what he was going to do with the info. But this past saturday mrning he was wide awak, and decided to have some fun and he calls youwager at 2 in the morning, and has them transfer over some of the money. He plays a little poker wins, and decideds to transfer the mney back, before jason knows what happened. But then he starst to lose, and he needs Jason's money again. SO he call youwager again, and transfers the money again back to his account, where hen procceds to wager it and lose it.

It's clear that this isn't some scam these players are trying to pull off against youwager. My understanding is that an identity theft report has already been filed with the FBI. I think this thomas character made a big mistake, and should seriously consider paying everyone back, or he had best flee the country. It's only a matter of time before the police come knocking on his door

[natrass]

penetrating hell !!

[marc]

HEre's the part that I don't understand form the youwager side. A guy calls up pretending to be Jason and requests that all of his funds be transffered over to another player. A quick look at the caller id, and the clerk would have easily see not only was the call not emanating from the same state as where Jason is from, but the phone number actually belonged to the other player. Yet no flag was raised. Then this player who from what I understand has a very distinct voice calls back, claiming to be himself, and requests to transfer the money back to jason. Maybe he spoke to different clekrs. But surely at that time of day, I doubt youwager is getitng many calls, anone would think the clerk if s/he cared would have realized that the voice was the same, the telephone number certianly was. Then the player calls back as jason trnasfers the money back again, calls back agian as thomas requests a **. This THomas guy called numerous times throughout the day. Always with the same phone number and the same voice. Believe me, if he had been trying to pull off a bonus scam, youwager would have been all over him. But since this didn't involve yowager's money, it just seems like they didn't give a damn.

[Dark Horse]

Youwager.com sucks. I put some money there, after asking every question in the book (I had my doubts about them), but decided to withdraw it after hearing the above story. Now they suddenly want a 2x rollover before I can withdraw my funds, or charge 4% on a Neteller withdrawal that is supposed to be free (1 free Neteller withdrawal a month). They totally invented a new rule. I'm not talking 2x rollover to meet a bonus requirement; just to withdraw funds without paying a penalty.

I told them that I had a security concern plus didn't see much use for an account that didn't offer overnight lines. Sure enough, Kristy Cross tried to explain to me that it is actually better for bettors not to have overnight lines. lol.

[natrass]

Any news on this?

[marc]

Darkhorse,

I've never heard of a 2x rollover. Most books do though require a 1x roll in oder to give them a chance to win back the deposit fees they incurred.

Natrass,

Just to give you an idea of the sick minds at work, check out this threat at therx. http://forum.therx.com/showthread.php?t=357811
You'll note that poster 2sweet2323 seems to wnat to tell the world how youwager lethim him lay 5k on the knicks at +475. And then when he won, he was able to withdraw with no problem. Only the wager details, and withdrawal information he cut and pasted weren't from his account, but rather they were from Jaosn's account. Basically he was broadcasting as early as 2 weeks ago, that he had access to Jason's account. Unfortunately for Jason, he doesn't read therx.

But I think Mr. sweet2323 screwed with the wrong person tis time. I think there is a good chance local law enforcement will be knocking on his door in the next few days.

2sweet2323,

if you are reading this i suggest you pay back the money you stole, this time your not going to get away with it.

[slacker00]

This seems unreal that a book would fall for this. The story definitely doesn't add up. Either Youwager completely fumbled the football, or there's more to this story.

Is it normal for sportsbooks to allow "agents"? More importantly, are agents allowed this type of activity? I'm not very familiar to agents, maybe I need to be brought up to speed.

[imgv94]

Wow what a read? I think youwager should take some blame for this!
I think Jason will get his money back

[JC]

I can't follow who is the agent, and who is the player with Betonstars and how that relates to YouWager.

It seems YouWager transferred your funds to another player in house without making any attempt to verify your identity. I'd say YouWager owes you the money.

[Bill Dozer]

There are certainly some looming questions such as: How did the player gain access to Jason's YouWager account and know to pursue it in the first place? This is YouWager's biggest question.

Their current stance is they can't be responsible for account details which most will agree with. However, they do need to take responsibility for safeguarding account holders who may not even know this type of account debitting is an option. (This appears to be in the works.) Even an ATM card which requires a pin code, has daily limits.

I am scheduled to receive tapes from both BetonStars and Youwager tomorrow. Hopefully more information will be revealed.

The email Gambler1122@yahoo was added to this account prior to the bettor becoming an active agent.

Jay,

This thread may fill you in.

[imgv94]

So it is really possible to transfer $7,700? That needs to be changed. I know
it might make it more difficult for bigwigs but a limit of $1000 a day seems
more suitable and appropriate. What are your thoughts?

[jason]

There certainly are some questions that have not been answered yet. And this has been YouWager's biggest problem - that I haven't explained to them who this guy is and how he got my information.

But that is exactly the problem. I don't know. This has all been a crazy shock to me and I have given YouWager and now the forum whatever I do know. What else can I do?

For 2 days of research we found out a lot, including the guy's having done at BetonStars, where his IP address is, the fact that the name he used is the name of a perosn who appeared in a local obituary near this guy's home town.

I hope that between Bill Dozer, the tapes, YouWager, BetonStars, and the FBI the will be able to explain the missing details - like who this criminal reall is, exactly how he got my account #, why/how he chose me, and if he has anyone else's information that he has tried or successfully done this to. I hope that investigation also demonstrates what YouWager needs to see to understand that I was completely victimized and it was facilitated by their transfer/security system.

[Dark Horse]

As mentioned, because of this story I wanted to withdraw at youwager/FF today. This was their explanation (never mind the English):

As you know there is always too sides of a story and if you only here what one side has to say you are missing 50% of the true. The costumer that had this dispute gave his account number and password to a "friend" of his. Comparing it to a bank is a great idea, if somebody goes to your bank account online with your account number and password, which you gave him, how is the bank going to know it is not you?

This book doesn't see eye to eye with customers. There are books that do, and if you have experiences with both types you immediately know the difference; just from the way they approach a problem or dispute. A good book is helpful and goes the extra mile to try to resolve a problem. A sleazy book tries to sweep it under the carpet and explains everything in its favor. Chances are FF doesn't have a clue about this difference. B+ is too high for them.

[imgv94]

If Jason doesn't get his $ back, anyone who was thinking about
opening up an acct with them will think twice. And you know what
happens when someone thinks twice.

[slacker00]

If Dark Horse's experience is any indication of YouWager's attitude, they definitely deserve a downgrade. YouWager was certainly on my horizon of books to check out, but not anymore.

[pags11]

what a terrible deal...please keep us updated...

[JC]

The FBI???

They are not going to help you here.

Keep this between you, SBR, and FF.

[natrass]

This book doesn't see eye to eye with customers. There are books that do, and if you have experiences with both types you immediately know the difference; just from the way they approach a problem or dispute. A good book is helpful and goes the extra mile to try to resolve a problem. A sleazy book tries to sweep it under the carpet and explains everything in its favor.

That is totally correct I think.

I find this appaling. Mistakes happen of course and no one is perfect but its just so illogical, thats the hard bit to understand. What were they thinking of?

[marc]

YOuwager is correect. Lets compare this to a bank. Most financial institutions are aware of the practivce known as "phishing." Thats when people send you emails that state things like "this is paypal security, we noticed some ireegular activity in your account, please click on the link below and answer some security questions." There are always people trying to get your bank information. But unlike youwager, and most other sportsbooks as well, places like paypal, and your banks do thier bets to protect you agianst things like that. Not only do banks tyr to warn thier cusomters about ways in whihc people will try to gain access to thier information, but they wanr thier staff as well to be on the look out.

Unfortunately most sportsbooks and casinos seem to be ignoring the growing threat of phishing. ANd because they are ignoring it, thier clerks aren't ebing careful, and when it happens there is an automatic assumption that the victim is likley a scammer, or a victim of a firend or coworker who had access to his computer. But in reality it's really not all that dificult.

Just to give a simple example, A while back blue marlin closed down. SOmeone goes to Reggie who owned Blue marlin and says hey, I'll give you 10k, for a copy of your cusomters database. Regiie knows he out of the pst up business so he says sure. Now some guy has a list of names emails adresses, phone numbers and passwords of well over 1000 players. He looks at the players who make deposits of a couple of thosand at a time. He knows those guys are likely playing at some other books. And he knows taht many players use the same passowrd over and over again. SO he starts calling boks like Cris, talks to an underpaid clerk and says "hi, my computer crashed and I lost all my login information. Can you pease tell me my account number." CLerk asks for his name and address whihc he provides. He gives her the password he thinks the player used, and presto, he gets the account number.

Here is another way. Take a big book like betonsports. The account numbers are standard. If you open an account the account will beign with IN2xxxxx. They don't require players to have numbers in their password. Now common passowrds are people names, or names of teams, or words like gambler. SO you pick a word like Patriots. ANd you write a program that starting with account in230000 and going to in250000 will keep checking to see if any of those accounts has the name patriots as the password. Once you ahve the program set up, you just keep entering different words and names, and you are sure to get some hits.

So gaining access to someones account is really not all that hard, and sportsbooks need to start recognizing that. PReviouslyt the question was always "well even if someone could log in, what good would it do, how will thye get your money out. Well in the case of youwager, it was quite easy, he just transffered the moeny to his own account. But now that books offer Poker, that has also become a way of stealing money. There was a player who contacted SBR back in September. OSmeone had logged into his Expekt account, played poker, and seemingly dumped his money to two toher players. The player contacted Expekt, and thier reaction was basically "how do we know you are telling the truth." All the player could say was 1) he never played poker beofre and 2) check the ip address. And the boks response was basically the same as youwager. How do we know you didn't give a friend of yours your account information.

The solution is not that difficult.
Login id's and passowrds should be computer generated much like the way intertops does it.
any time a change is made to an account an email should be sent to email address on file.
if a player needs his login info it should be sent to his email address.
payout request should be done online, and players should be given a computer genrated pin code that the clerks don't have access to.
When players log into thier accounts they should see both the last time they logged in, and the last time a login was attempted. That way if someone broke in or tired to break in, the player will notice.

If those steps are taken, it will be much more difficult for people to gain access. But the first step is to get the bookies to ackowledge that there is a growing problem of thieves gaining unathorized access into players accounts.

[Mikehunt]

Mikehunt will never deal with youwager ever! Mikehunt

[Brick Tamland]

marc is on fire tonight.another slam dunk post. players should all read this thread.

Youwager wtf???? Alls someone needs is a my password and they can clean me out in the middle of the fackin night??? This is agent shit not somethin a depsotor should need to worry bout. books require id s and will only send checks to my address. neteller has 2 pws. this player got jacked.

[dog]

I used to play at Youwager until I went on a run with them and they stopped offering bonuses to me. At least they don't call me to reload all the time like they used to.

Youwager and Payoffs Plus are sister sportsbooks. I remember hitting their Monday Night Football exact score contest on the button a couple of years ago, but since I hadn't been active in the last month or two, I didn't get the $5,000 free play. And I won some smaller NBA contests at Payoffsplus, but there were always numerous others who shared the prize. Even then, they kicked me out after I went on a run there. I presently play at neither sportsbook and wouldn't recommend them to anyone, they have gone down a ways in the last 3 years or so.

[gorox]

minor note, my betonsports account id does not start with IN2....it does start with IN though. nontheless, a good post marc

[slacker00]

minor note, my betonsports account id does not start with IN2....it does start with IN though. nontheless, a good post marc

Actually, all books seem to have a 6-number ID now that you mention it. Pinny is 2 initials plus 6 digits, CRIS is CR plus 6 digits, Bowmans & Bodog is simply 6 digits. BOS, WagerWeb, Canbet also. I wonder why 6 digits seems to be the magic number.

A good feature might enable a user to see a history of login attempts and locations. I wonder if anyone has tried any of my account numbers with a method such as Marc has suggested. Books should definitely be on the lookout for this kind of suspicious activity.

[imgv94]

Bodog is simply 6 digits. I wonder why 6 digits seems to be the magic number.

My bodog acct was a five digit #.

[pags11]

mark, excellent post and excellent ideas...

[Santo]

Mine's 5 digit too, I think it depends when you opened them... mine is 3-4 years old

[gorox]

and my wagerweb is 5 digits.

[isetcap]

my bodog account is two-digit.
anybody want it? here it is...



that's the only way i ever "sign" into bodog.

[Dark Horse]

lol

[jason]

A couple of notes:

Thanks to everyone for their support and suggestions for sites to easily avoid this in the future.

Anyone who has any information on this thief, his IP address, or phone #, please let Bill know.

In terms of First Fidelity, they keep on complaining that I have not taken any responsiblity.

Look at my post. I stated clearly that I made a misake in using the same password for other sites. In fact, I advised everyone to change their passwords. I am not quite sure what they mean when they say that I am not taking responsiblity.

EVERYONE AGREES that the PERSON WHO IS TO BLAME IS THE THIEF, but YouWager's system facilitated this and I am so surprised at how they seem not to care.

I just hope that they recognize this, and then realize what has happened.