[curious]

Originally Posted by BuddyBear

Israel is about as close to a useless country as you will ever find. Israel does next to nothing to advance the United States' interests, and the U.S. obediently answers to Israel no matter what.

Just about every nation in the world is critical of the Israel government, even Israelis themselves. Every nation in this world is supportive of the Palestinians and supports their continued struggle for freedom. Only the U.S. refuses to criticize a thing that Israel does. The U.S. is an absolute joke.....it's them and Israel who are an impedement to peace and not the other way around. Israel does not want peace, it wants to expand. Most people fail to realize that b/c they've been brainwashed by the Israel Lobby and corporate news media in this country. Watch any news station and you'll find nary a critical voice of Israel among the established news personalities in this country. Even the most "liberal" radio hosts defend Israel no matter the crime or massacre they committ.

Anyway, for those of you interested in an intellectual read on this topic, feel free to look over the critically aclaimed The Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt esteemed professors at some of the finest academic institutions in the world.

Of course, not critically acclaimed by the corporate media but by anyone with half a brain or conscience. They lay out with evidence and let the facts do the talking about the current situation and how Israel is subverting the peace process. You won't hear the standard emotive bluster about irrelevant events that that happened generations and centuries ago in this book.

here is a link to it, http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U... 018015&sr=1-1

Struggle for freedom? From Israel? Do you know ANYTHING about the plight of the Palestinians? They have no freedoms because the Muslim countries they live in refuse to grant them any human rights. The Israelis unilaterally withdrew from the West Bank, Gaza, and southern Lebanon. The Palestinians are free to do what they please. Which so far has been to fire rockets into civilian areas in Israel. Which is why they have the problems they do with the IDF. If they would stop that nonsense the IDF would leave them alone.

Subverting the peace process? You cannot be serious. There is no peace process. The terrorists that control Gaza and West Bank have yet to detract their stated goal of the total destruction of Israel. The nutjobs in Gaza fire rockets into civilian areas of southern Israel daily. This is a "peace process"? Israel is done talking to these murderers. As they should be. Murderers should not be negotiated with, they should be rooted out and destroyed.

Israel wants to expand? Please put down the crack pipe. And pick up a history book. At one time, Israel controlled the Sinai peninsula, the West Bank, southern Lebanon, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. Israel gave Egypt the Sinai in exchange for a peace treaty which both sides have kept. Israel unilaterally withdrew from the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon. This is a strange kind of expansion.

I notice that you aren't upset that the media never mentions the crimes that the murderers in Gaza commit on a daily basis, the firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas.

The murderers claimed that they were fighting for "land". Israel made a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, the West Bank, and southern Lebanon. They forcibly evicted Israeli citizens who had built homes and businesses in these areas, sometimes at gunpoint. The military leaders advised that this was a mistake, that it made the defense of Israel much more difficult, and they were getting nothing in return.

What did Israel get in return for unilaterally withdrawing from these areas? Rockets fired deeper into Israel proper is what they got for it. And three wars not of their making.

There will be no peace process as long as the murderers are allowed to keep murdering Israeli civilians with rocket attacks. As well there should not be.

What other country on earth has it demanded of them that they sit by and do nothing while their enemies fire rockets into their cities?

[capitalist pig]

We the USA are hated world wide at this point, if we are going to launch some missles at Iran, to destroy nuclear facilities that may or may not be there, now is the time.If we get lucky and actually destroy some nuclear missle bases we will be heroes, if we F up and cant prove we destroyed them , we will be right where we are now in the worlds eyes. Seems like a win win situation, but we must act quickly,JMO.

later

[curious]

Originally Posted by OLGC_Slayer

Maybe Israel should stop putting Palestinians in concentration camps and stealing their land and destroying their olive groves and water, eh?
I mean listen to how you talk. You are insane with religious and racial hatred. I don't care if your Jewish, your as bad as the most insane jihadi. Peas in a pod.
I could care less about Israel. Its just another crazy middle east country full of fanatical nutjobs like yourself. Problem is the same mindset of nutjobs are currently in control of the US government.

"...religious and racial hatred"? Please quote what I said that shows this. I said that the Iranians were taking actions that were going to lead to a war and they would lose this war. In what way is that racist? I don't remember saying anything about religion.

"...don't care if you are Jewish". I am not.

"...stop putting Palestinians in concentration camps". If you would put down the crack pipe and pick up a book you will see that it was the Muslim countries surrounding Israel that put the Palestinians in camps, the Israelis did not do this.

" ...fanatical nutjobs like yourself". I am a nutjob for pointing out that if Iran continues to threaten a war of genocide on Israel and continues trying to obtain the means to conduct such a war that they will put the Israeli government in a position where the Israelis have no choice but to shoot first? And to show that the Israelis are contemplating this I pointed out that they recently created an "Iran front" and a new combined arms army which is being specially trained in asymmetric warfare? That makes me a "fanatical nutjob"?

[BuddyBear]

If curious you were in the military, then that explains why you think like this. It's unfortunate b/c most military members are brainwashed and led to believe that the U.S. and Israel are one and the same Rah Rah Rah.

Step back and put the crack pipe down, think about it for a moment....Jimmy Carter-a person who has done more than anyone on this earth to secure peace and safety for Israel-is highly critical of Israel's policy and described it as apartheid. Esteemed political science professors are saying the U.S./Israel alliance is all but useless.

I mean you tell me, why does the entire world outside of the U.S. support the Palestinians??? Come on man, think for a change instead of parroting the same tired out old rhetoric about Israel and how benevolent a country they are.

[donjuan]

Buddy Bear,

What do you propose as a solution for Israel/Palestine?

OLGC,

Nation of fanatical nutjobs? Most Israelis lead a secular life and aren't very concerned with religion.

Capitalist Pig,

You are insane. By the way, there was a recent poll done and worldwide opinion of the US has improved in the last year.

Curious,

You are insane.

[Kerfuffle]

OLGC slayer =

[Thor4140]

Originally Posted by donjuan

I forgot that when talking about Israel, both sides are allowed to completely make shít up.

FYI, the monthly minimum wage in Israel is approximately $940 for a 40-hour work week, according to the US State Department's website. Now I know most people on this forum aren't fond of math, but that works out to about $5.85 an hour.

Boosting the minimum wage
By Nehemia Strasler
Tags: minimum wage

Yes, 2007 was a good year for the Israeli economy. Growth maintained its rapid clip, the unemployment rate declined, the balance of payments is in the black, the budget is balanced, inflation is low and the national debt has shrunk. In addition, international credit rating agencies have upgraded Israel. And 2008 will also be a good year. If something positive emerges from the Annapolis conference and serious peace talks are conducted, 2007's results will pale beside 2008's. So it is hard to understand the Knesset's decision yesterday to postpone updating the minimum wage for six months.

It all started in mid-2007, when the finance ministry proposed postponing the third stage in upgrading the minimum wage by an entire year - from December 2007 to December 2008. The Histadrut labor federation's leaders were furious. In August, Finance Minister Roni Bar-On and Histadrut chief Ofer Eini met and arrived at a compromise: The minimum wage would be upgraded in July, not December, 2008. In other words, the postponement was shortened to six months. On Tuesday, the Knesset's Labor and Welfare Committee approved the postponement by a majority of eight, with six opposed, after an exhaustive discussion that lasted all of 10 minutes. The Knesset approved it yesterday after a stormy debate. Many Labor MKs voted against, but the Pensioners Party mobilized, creating a majority.

The outcome is that Israeli society's weakest members will continue earning NIS 3,710 a month (NIS 19.95 hourly), and their salaries will increase only in July - to the stunning monthly level of NIS 3,850. That is, by NIS 140.
Advertisement
The treasury meanwhile will save a paltry NIS 116 million. Why paltry? Because in the 2008 budget debate, the treasury increased the education budget by NIS 1.7 billion, the defense budget by NIS 1.6 billion, the health budget by half a billion, senior-citizen allowances by half a billion and compensation payments to surviving victims of the Nazis by NIS 700 million. Was the treasury unable to find another NIS 116 million in a budget whose total expenditure is NIS 300 billion?

The freeze on the minimum wage is a delayed - and mistaken - reaction to the Second Lebanon War. It was decided after that war that ministry budgets would be slashed because of fears of both a recession and a reduction in tax revenue. But neither scenario occurred. Economic growth accelerated and productivity sharply increased. Nonetheless, the upgrade of the minimum wage was postponed from June 2007 to December 2007, and this week it was again postponed.

The postponement is a mistake - socially and economically. It clashes with our economic policy to encourage people to enter the labor market. Silvan Shalom and Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud) initiated the process when they reduced the guaranteed income allowance while lowering the income tax rate.

The result was that Israelis were encouraged to go out and work. Former Labor Party leader Amir Peretz climbed on the bandwagon when he demanded an increase in the minimum wage to $1,000. Although some companies were forced to reduce their workforces because of the increase, some businesses went ahead with the pay raise, even recruiting additional employees.

The undeniable fact is that since 2003, 400,000 people have entered the job market and the percentage of Israelis in the national labor force has climbed from 54 to 57 percent - an important social achievement.

An increase in the minimum wage is the appropriate answer to poverty and the socioeconomic gap. It is the best incentive for encouraging people to enter the labor market and emerge from poverty's vicious circle because, among families where both partners work, only 4 percent live below the poverty line.

An increase in the minimum wage is a much better solution than the dubious invention known as negative income tax, which creates red tape and needless complications, promotes deceptive behavior, and discourages people from advancing themselves in their careers and earning more. So it is infuriating to hear that the same finance minister who agrees to allocate NIS 300 million for a negative income tax wants to save NIS 116 million by delaying an upgrade to the minimum wage.

The postponement should be canceled. The minimum wage should be raised today to NIS 3,850 amonth. It should be raised again next year to NIS 4,000. As long as the economy grows quickly and demand for workers increases, employers can and should pay a higher minimum wage. That is why it is high time to upgrade the working conditions of those prepared to abandon a life of inactivity and enter the job market.

[curious]

Originally Posted by BuddyBear

If curious you were in the military, then that explains why you think like this. It's unfortunate b/c most military members are brainwashed and led to believe that the U.S. and Israel are one and the same Rah Rah Rah.

Step back and put the crack pipe down, think about it for a moment....Jimmy Carter-a person who has done more than anyone on this earth to secure peace and safety for Israel-is highly critical of Israel's policy and described it as apartheid. Esteemed political science professors are saying the U.S./Israel alliance is all but useless.

I mean you tell me, why does the entire world outside of the U.S. support the Palestinians??? Come on man, think for a change instead of parroting the same tired out old rhetoric about Israel and how benevolent a country they are.

Jimmy Carter is an idiot who single handedly turned Iran over to the Islamofascists. He also almost single handedly destroyed our economy. Do you forget 20% interest rates, 15% inflation rates, 10% unemployment rates during the reign of this idiot? When the Islamofascists invaded our sovereign territory and kidnapped our citizens, one of the most brazen acts of war in modern history, the "great peace maker" did nothing. This only emboldened our enemies. Clausewitz, who knew a little something about war and hated it, said "If you want peace prepare for war".

I know that you don't want to be confused with facts, but I don't get my information from the media, I get it from original source documents as much as possible. Here is the truth about the plight of the Palestinians. Saying that Israel is an apartheid state is preposterous.

During WWI the British Empire promised the Jews their own state if they would help the British win the war. This agreement was called the Balfour Agreement. The British occupied most of the Middle East, including the non "nation" they named "Palestine". Palestine was not a nation, has never been a nation, and has no citizens. The term "Palestinian" doesn't actually make any sense. But, I digress.

After WWII, the Jews, remembering the promise that the British Empire made them about having their own country, started an independence movement in the area under British control known as the British mandate of Palestine. This area included Biblical Israel, and a large territory much larger than Biblical Israel that for most of history had been Egyptian territory.

This independence movement was not religious in nature. There was no idea of carving up the British mandate of Palestine, the United Nations did that later.

Britain was of two minds about what to do about this. They were obligated by the Balfour agreement to grant independence, but the leaders of Britain were dishonest and did not honor the agreement publicly. Privately they kept saying to the Jews that the agreement would be honored.

Britain finally tried to wash their hands of the entire affair and turned the whole mess over to the United Nations. The United Nations sent a fact finding team to the former British territory which wrote a recommendation that there be one new country set up, not two, and that this new country not be based on religion. Most of the inhabitants of the former British mandate of Palestine agreed with this proposal, which is why the UN team proposed it.

At the last minute, the United States intervened and demanded a two state resolution to the problem. The United Nations then passed resolutions granting two states independence, one called Israel and the other temporarily known as Palestine to be given an official name by the inhabitants.

In 1948 Israel, in accordance with the United Nations resolutions claimed independence, the territory granted them by the UN for their new nation occupied roughly 54% of the former British mandate of Palestine. The new Palestinian nation was given most of the rest, with a few % given to Jordan and Egypt.

One fact that the hysterics in the media overlook when talking about the "palestinians", besides the fact that there never was any such country, is that the Jews were also Palestinians. The Jews are also Arabs, so to say that this is an "Arab Jewish" problem is incorrect. You can't even say that it is a Jewish problem because Israel contains people of many faiths.

On the same day that Israel declared independence, all the Muslim countries surrounding Israel launched a war with the stated purpose of killing all the Jewish inhabitants of the area. This is a fact which you can easily look up. The words of the leaders of these countries and the military leaders of the Muslim armies were broadcast on the radio and printed in many newspapers. The Muslim inhabitants of the new nation of Israel were told to leave their homes so that the Muslim armies would have a free hand in carrying out their war of genocide. And, after the war was over they could go back home and pick the best of the property from the soon to be dead Jews. This is also a fact.

Many Muslims took this advice and left their homes, settling temporarily, or so they thought, in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and the territory granted independence by the U.N. as the second nation to be formed from the former British mandate of Palestine.

The Muslims miscalculated and lost their war of genocide with Israel.

Two things now happened which is why the Palestinians are in the shape they are today. First, the Muslims refused to create a new country as granted them by the U.N. resolutions from their half of the mandate of Palestine. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon then made a land grab for this territory. Palestine ceased to exist, Israel was independent, but there was no new independent Muslim country as allowed by the U.N. resolutions.

Second, and this is the most important part. Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon decided that they didn't really want all these refugees living in their countries so they put them in camps and denied them citizenship and human rights.

This is how these camps were created, and this is why these Muslim people who are the descendents of the former Muslim inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine became people without a country, people without an identity.

It is true that in successive wars, launched by the Muslims, the Israelis did occupy territories inhabited by these refugees. But, what else were the Israelis to do? Allow Syria to fire artillery shells into the heart of Israel from the Golan heights daily? Allow the Egyptians to fight a proxy war from bases right on Israel's border? Allow the Jordanians to fight a proxy war from bases right on the Jordan river?

No sane country would put up with that.

If you want to blame someone for the plight of the former inhabitants of the British mandate of Palestine and their descendents, blame the Muslim countries who refuse to give these people any human rights but continue to treat them as squatters. And blame these people themselves for refusing to set up their own country in 1948 as authorized by the U.N.

I notice that this cry of "but they stole the land" is never leveled at Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, or Egypt who carved up the other half of the British mandate of Palestine in direct defiance of U.N. resolutions.

[Kerfuffle]

Thor4140

1 USD = 3.6 NIS

You must be Baghdad Bob's assistant.

[ShamsWoof10]

Originally Posted by capitalist pig

We the USA are hated world wide at this point, if we are going to launch some missles at Iran, to destroy nuclear facilities that may or may not be there, now is the time.If we get lucky and actually destroy some nuclear missle bases we will be heroes, if we F up and cant prove we destroyed them , we will be right where we are now in the worlds eyes. Seems like a win win situation, but we must act quickly,JMO.

later

I bet my life on it that if asked five years ago (around the start of the Iraq) war about Iran and their "so called" abilities you would NOT have this opinion... It's 5 years of conditionning that has changed it...

I have several friends who claimed they would be pissed if we went into Iran because the reasoning would be bullsh*t like Iraq was... It's now 5 years later and they believe as C_P does.. What changed their opinion or WHOOOOO...????

Also a question for everyone... It is pretty clear Isreal has WMD's... Why are they NOT inspected and why is it ok for them to have them..?

[Kerfuffle]

Wow, so many Arabs and Moslems are gamblers.

Don't they cut your dicks off or something if your caught?

[curious]

Originally Posted by ShamsWoof10

I bet my life on it that if asked five years ago (around the start of the Iraq) war about Iran and their "so called" abilities you would NOT have this opinion... It's 5 years of conditionning that has changed it...

I have several friends who claimed they would be pissed if we went into Iran because the reasoning would be bullsh*t like Iraq was... It's now 5 years later and they believe as C_P does.. What changed their opinion or WHOOOOO...????

Also a question for everyone... It is pretty clear Isreal has WMD's... Why are they NOT inspected and why is it ok for them to have them..?

I dont' really care about any of this. Iran has been at war with us since 1979, they have murdered hundreds of our citizens. They are fighting a war against us in Iraq.

Unless you will accuse me of making up these facts also.

[ShamsWoof10]

This article is soooo dead on IMO...

This is the first paragraph only but it's eno