[Mudcat]

Over-rated player IMO.

Unless there is a rule that says that 300 wins means automatic induction, I don't think he belongs (and I don't think there should be such a rule). His 300 wins was much more about longevity than dominance. I feel HOF induction should be about dominance.

Here's my case:

Lifetime record: 324-292 for a .526 winning percentage.

Post-season record: 2-2

Cy Young awards: 0

MVP awards: 0 (best finish ever was 14th in voting)

Two 20 win seasons in a 27 year career (21-16 in '73, 22-16 in '74.)

19 of those 27 seasons, less than 15 wins.

I'm not seeing any dominance there.



He was most noted for 2 things that just aren't that important.

7 no-hitters - that's is interesting and quirky but ultimately an over-rated stat. If those no-hitters were somehow translating to 24-5 seasons, then okay but that wasn't the case.

Strikeouts. Who cares? I am interested in outs. Key outs. Outs that produce a winning percentage comfortably over .500. The fact that a lot of his outs were strikeouts is not much more interesting to me than having a hitter who hits 20 home runs a year but they all happen to go 550 feet. It's flashy but low on substance.

Gimme Greg Maddux in his prime over 327 strikeouts and a 17-18 record (Ryan, 1976) any day.



To me, this is a .500 pitcher who lasted a long time. To me, that doesn't equal Hall of Fame.

That is all.

[tacomax]

Unfortuately many things like this are dictated by the "wrong" statistics.

Take last years Cy Young award. Roger Clemens was by far and away the best pitcher in his league (and in fact the whole of MLB) but since he couldn't get any run support (not his fault and no reflection on his ability to pitch) then he missed out to Carpenter.

[Willie Bee]

Lifetime record: 324-292 for a .526 winning percentage.

And Ernie Banks was a .487 shortstop in his day. Should be be kicked out of Cooperstown?

Wins and losses are a team stat, period.

I'll fight to the death for you to have the right to your own opinion, Mud. But for my money, Nolan is one of the top 15-20 pitchers I've seen over the past 45 years or so. And that ranking puts him among the game's elite.

[SBR_John]

If Nolan doesn't make the Hall they should just tear it down. His 105 mph fastball and wicked curve is everything the Hall stands for. He had a ton of 1 hitters to go with those 7 no-no's.

Seriously if you saw Nolan KO'd Rickey Henderson in his prime for strikeout # 5,000 you had chills running down your spine. Nolan didnt need a sign, the whole world knew the next set of pitches were gonna be heaters. Three straight 104 mph fastballs thrown right down Broadway and Henderson fanned at all three.

[Illusion]

Nolan also pitched for alot of bad teams, so alot of those losses are due to lack of run support. You don't pitch all those years in the majors and have all of those no hitters/one hitters by accident.

[tacomax]

Wins and losses are a team stat, period.

And a really crap stat to judge a pitcher on.

[sergfro]

Over-rated player IMO.


7 no-hitters - that's is interesting and quirky but ultimately an over-rated stat. If those no-hitters were somehow translating to 24-5 seasons, then okay but that wasn't the case.

That is all.

You only see 1-2 no hitters a year...how can you say thats overrated? Especially playing in a bad teams like he did

[SBR_John]

The knock on Nolan was his control. Its a fair knock. He could have a no hitter through 7 in a 0 - 0 game and walk the next 5 and get the hook in a 2-0 no hitter! But that was Nolan. Still, a rare talent. Imagine having to face him! You get a pair of 104 mph fastballs, your ready to swing and you get that sicko looping curve. Your frozen like a deer in the headlights as the ump rings you up.

[imgv94]

Nolan Ryan doesn't belong in the hall of fame??


Wow!!!!!!!!!

Nolan Ryan Pitched a Lifetime ERA of 3.19
Clemens Lifetime ERA- 3.12

I guess Clemens doesn't deserve being in the
Hall Of Fame either..

Nolan ryan threw 7 no hitters!!! Most guys never
throw one, let alone 7!!

Nolan Ryan 5,714 Strikeouts/5,386 Innings Pitch-
(and he doesn't belong in the hall of fame)

And here is the icing on the cake.
Threw over 300 Strikeouts in 6 different
seasons.

Clemens has never thrown more than 292 ever
in his career.

Saying Ryan doesn't belong in the hall of fame
is repugnant!!!!!

Also he broke radar guns with his blazing fastball!!

See everyone there is a difference between fact and
opinion.

Fact is Nolan Ryan is in the hall of fame And is
one of the best pitchers of all time.

[pags11]

he was just so good for so long, I'd have to say he deserves it...

[TLD]

Not even a close call. He absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame.

It’s true that some of his more impressive numbers are a product of longevity as much as anything else, but why is that a knock on him? The longevity should be placed on the positive side of his ledger, not the negative side.

He was very good (say, somewhere between the 10th and 25th best starting pitcher in baseball) just about every season for well over twenty years, which to me is at least as impressive as being truly exceptional (say, in the top 10 of starting pitchers) for almost every season of a ten to fifteen year career.

If I could have a pitcher for just one season, there are many I’d take over Nolan Ryan. But if I were going to have a pitcher for a whole career, there are very, very few I’d take over Nolan Ryan.

And I think the intangibles that make someone a larger than life sports figure can and should be factored in. It’s the Hall of “Fame” after all. Strikeouts, no-hitters, and radar-gun-defying fast balls are fan favorites. People wanted to see Ryan pitch the way they wanted to see the Babe hit homers. So maybe he is a little overrated, but how the fan’s “rate” a player is part of what determines the impact he had on his era, which is very relevant to whether he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

You can make a case that there’s no athlete in history more “overrated” than Arnold Palmer, at least if you measure it in some narrow number-crunching sense of tournaments won and average score and such, but a golf Hall of Fame without Arnold Palmer would be a complete and utter joke.

So would a baseball Hall of Fame without Ryan.

[SBR_John]

It’s the Hall of “Fame” after all. Strikeouts, no-hitters, and radar-gun-defying fast balls are fan favorites. People wanted to see Ryan pitch the way they wanted to see the Babe hit homers.

Thats VERY strong and well said. Great post overall but it really hit home comparing wanting to see The Babe hit with wanting to see Ryan pitch.

[imgv94]

I agree with SBR_John, I usually do anyway. TLD's post pretty much summed
it all up!! Great post TLD!!

[Sean]

nolan was on the juice.

You're probably right Brick ... like when he went all "roid rage" and made Robin Ventura his bitch. No other explanation for how a 45 year old man could beat the dog shit out of a 23 year old kid ... had to be the juice

[Sean]

Now that I think about it, that one glorious moment alone is enough for Nolan to get my HOF vote. Representing for all us old bastards!

[Willie Bee]

If I could have a pitcher for just one season, there are many I’d take over Nolan Ryan. But if I were going to have a pitcher for a whole career, there are very, very few I’d take over Nolan Ryan.

Well put, TLD

Since they pitched in different eras, I'm not sure you can really compare Ryan to Clemens statistically. Clemens' ERA is lower than Ryan's and it's pretty clear Clemens has pitched in a far more hitter-friendly era (actually, both he and Ryan pitched across at least two different eras). You really have to compare Ryan to his contemporaries,and likewise with Clemens. And in that regard, both are very similar since very few, if any, of their own peers were in the same league with either.

I'm very biased and no doubt lack some objectivity when it comes to Mr. Lynn Nolan Ryan. In the early 60s when I was in little league on Houston's SW side, Ryan was already a household name in the Houston area and already a legend, much like David Clyde 10 years later.

And I agree with Sean about the Ventura incident. Watching Ryan whip up on Ventura was uplifting for the older farts in the crowd. It's my favorite headline to ever appear in the Houston Chronicle. The paper posted the very same photo we see in this thread, and above the shot it read, "Ryan throws 6-hitter."

[Mudcat]

I guess Clemens doesn't deserve being in the
Hall Of Fame either..

Clemens Cy Young Awards = 7

Clemens MVP Awards = 1



My whole argument is based on Hall of Fame inclusion being based on dominance and being the best. Of course Clemens belongs in the hall.

And just to recap:


Ryan Cy Young awards = 0

Ryan MVP Awards = best finish in 27 years was 14th in voting.



Clemens had seasons of 24-4, 21-6, 20-9, 21-7, 20-6, 20-3 (a couple of those with a very mediocre Blue Jays team BTW)

That's the kind of thing I look for a Hall of Famer to have (at least once, for crying out loud) but I don't see that with Ryan.

I'm just not an "Oooh look how fast those pitches went - let's put you in the Hall of Fame," kind of guy. IMO you need to be among the best handful at your position for at least a decade or so.

[Willie Bee]

There are as many criteria for HOF as there are baseball fans. For me, the question I have to answer is was that player in the top 10% of his contemporaries for at least 10 years. With guys like Ryan and Clemens, you can find a couple of 10-year periods I could use.

So Mudcat, I'm interested in hearing which pitchers you think were better than Ryan from 1970-1990, the real meat of his career. Which pitchers in the 70s and which pitchers in the 80s would you rank ahead of Ryan?

[sergfro]

what do wins have to do with how good a pitcher is? stick clemens on a team who doesnt score runs and he wouldnt produce those # of wins...perfect example last season 1.87 era and only gets 13 wins. Thats what happens when your team cannot score runs. Wins is overrated regards to pitchers

[isetcap]

I suspect that Mudcat is just stirring the pot here. I think this is a perfect example of how entering the Hall has to be above just a numbers game, especially when the numbers are skewed from era to era and even team to team. To have watched Nolan Ryan pitch and claim that he wasn't dominant borders on the absurd. He was a very special pitcher and a HOF personality. He was a major thread in the fabric of the game and MLB would be destroying itself to exclude such a legend from its home of legends.

[isetcap]

So Mudcat, I'm interested in hearing which pitchers you think were better than Ryan from 1970-1990, the real meat of his career. Which pitchers in the 70s and which pitchers in the 80s would you rank ahead of Ryan?

Just this question in and of itself should document the underrated importance of longevity as a pitcher. I think if someone puts up big numbers as a DH, you complain about how long he played the game, but when it's a pitcher, longevity becomes a strongpoint.

[SBR_John]

Hard to win a MVP when your team sports a record of 52-110. Ever hear of an MVP coming off cellar dewlers? So that arguement is lame. You put Nolan on the Yanks and he would of won 10 MVP's.

Its almost like saying Babe Ruth does not belong in the Hall because he led the league in strikeouts.

That's a great picture of Nolan whacking Robin in the ole headlock... a classic.

[GJMike]

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up how tough the guy was. Then halfway down reading all the posts I see the picture. That was a great moment. This young guy charges and then gets the shit kicked out of him. My buddy and I were watching the game and couldnt believe what happened. Great moment. BTW, I was a kid watching him at the end of his career, and he was exciting and amazing to watch.

[imgv94]

Mudcat=

Name a pitcher in ryan's era that was better?

Nolan Ryan
5,714 Strikeouts/5,386 Innings

More than 1 strikeout per inning in a 27 year career...
Jesus Christ and he doesn't belong in the H.O.F.

I hope your kidding with this Mudcat. Seriously

Why are we even arguing this anymore? I think you ask
1,000 knowledgeable people if Ryan belongs in the HOF the
vote would be 1000-0..

Sorry Mudcat you are completely wrong.

[Willie Bee]

During the 70s, there were three pitchers who immediately come to mind that I think were better than Ryan: Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton and Jim Palmer. When you talk about the top three arms that really dominated for that decade, I think Ryan is not one of the three candidates.

But once you start counting the top four, Ryan has to be in that consideration for the 70s. You can throw in Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry, Catfish Hunter, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, Luis Tiant and Vida Blue, but I can't think of too many others in the 70s. Ryan's definitely the top 5% of the starting pitchers in the 70s.

In the 80s, Bert Blyleven and Fernando Valenzuela might be the only arms I would even allow in an argument with Ryan. Not because Ryan so dominated, but because no single pitcher who played those 10 years was really as dominant as Seaver, Carlton and Palmer in the 70s. Maybe you could make a case for Roger Clemens and Dwight Gooden who came on the last six years or so of that decade. Jack Morris is another guy who had a solid 1980s. But again, Ryan has to be considered in at least the top 10% of that decade.

Now certainly there were pitchers who had good mid-60s to mid-70s, mid 70s to mid-80s and mid-80s to early-90s. Again, I'm biased. Saw the man pitch a good 32-35 times in my life, none of his historic stuff (except taking what would have been is 6th no-hitter into the 9th one time before Mike Schmidt borke it up). Depends on where your cutoff line is for the Hall of Fame: If it's top 1%, Ryan's borderline. If it's top 2%-5%, I think he's in. If you want more than 5% in, he's a lock.

[d2bets]

You're just wrong on this one, Mudcat. You're right that K's and no-hitters are overrated. But so is the record to a degree. As has been mentioned, he played on mostly shit teams. His ERA was competitive with the best. If he was on great teams he may have won 400 games. Career ERA over a long period of time is the most key stat. Ryan's 3.19 over a 20+ year career is quite good.

[onlooker]

Nolan Ryan belongs.
I think Mudcat just slipped and hit his head on the toilet. I bet he has a sketch of the flux compositor.

[Mudcat]

It looks like I have persuaded everyone. My work here is done.

[isetcap]

I suspect that Mudcat is just stirring the pot here.

It looks like I have persuaded everyone. My work here is done.

I knew it. Good job, Mudcat.

[Willie Bee]

It looks like I have persuaded everyone. My work here is done.

[bigboydan]

basicly he was a .500 pitcher, but look at some of those teams he played for too.

ryan had over 5,000 strikeout, and 7 no hitters, thats just unheard of in any era.

[onlooker]

It looks like I have persuaded everyone. My work here is done.

Good job **.

Everyone probably knew you had to be crazy or just doing it for sheits and giggles.

[tacomax]

Actually, having thought about it, he was a pretty crap pitcher wasn't he?

[bigboydan]

Actually, having thought about it, he was a pretty crap pitcher wasn't he?

LOL@taco

trying to stir it back up uh taco