[knicknut]

Hello. This has become increasingly fishy and I'm wondering what's been happening to others.

Very often, the line will change between entering your wager and finalizing your bet. This is a necessary evil of betting online. Unfortunately, this seems to happen BECAUSE I'm placing my bet, as if BetJamaica never wants to give me the line it advertises, and I can't figure out why.

I've now logged it and the last 8 bets I've tried to place there have gotten a "WARNING--YOUR LINE HAS MOVED" and have not been placed. Granted these are when BJ has the best line of any sportsbook on SBRLines of the game I want to bet on, but it's not like these are arbitrage opportunities that 50 professional betters are putting money on at once. Granted, I'm betting pretty large amounts, but it seems like I'm pegged in the system as someone they're exploiting to sharpen their lines, never letting me bet.

To test my theory, the last two times I wanted to bet there, I found my line and waited. I refreshed every minute or so for about 10 minutes, and the line didn't change. Right after my last refresh I entered my bet and clicked confirm (less than 10 seconds). My bet wasn't placed, and my line changed 10 cents.

I obviously can't experiment in betting games I don't like to try to move the line because of the risk involved, but I have been a member there for over 3 months and have only been able to place 6 bets there, and only 1 since the end of January! Every other time the line has mysteriously moved when I placed my bet.

Has anyone else experienced this? I've done a search and found nothing on it. I know that sportsbooks use the amount of bets to move their lines (supply and demand, just like any derivatives market), but moving any line that I show interest in to keep me from betting on it is very frustrating. I find it hard to believe I've just had bad luck/timing at this point.

[noyb]

just wondering: if you go back to the match you were betting at after you get the "the line just changed"-message, have the lines actually changed or are they just giving you another line then they give to their less sharp customers?

[Mudcat]

You're right, it is an unfortunate but necessary evil of the industry.

Your experience surprises me. When I think of books that are bad for this, Betjam doesn't come to mind for me. And even the worst books I know aren't anywhere near as bad as you are describing. Our betting habits sound very similar.

Other than that, I don't know what to say. If I were you, I'd just get out of Betjam and go somewhere else.

[knicknut]

Yeah, the line is permenantly changed.

If the system's not as smart as it could be, I could actually exploit this be betting on the OTHER side, forcing the line to change and turning the already good side into an arbitrage opportunity, and then someone else in a non-tagged account could then scoop up the arbitrage. That's REALLY risky though, and odds are their system takes other books' lines into account and would let me bet their worse lines.

I'm getting out of there as soon as I clear my bonus, mudcat. I can't afford to give it up now that I've wagered most of the required amount, but I guess I'll try to stick to smaller wagers to ensure they'll go through (or maybe keep betting like 1/5 of my desired bet until they change the line).

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by knicknut

Yeah, the line is permenantly changed.

If the system's not as smart as it could be, I could actually exploit this be betting on the OTHER side, forcing the line to change and turning the already good side into an arbitrage opportunity, and then someone else in a non-tagged account could then scoop up the arbitrage. That's REALLY risky though, and odds are their system takes other books' lines into account and would let me bet their worse lines.

I'm getting out of there as soon as I clear my bonus, mudcat. I can't afford to give it up now that I've wagered most of the required amount, but I guess I'll try to stick to smaller wagers to ensure they'll go through (or maybe keep betting like 1/5 of my desired bet until they change the line).

I hear ya. One thing that has to be said about Betjam: they are great on payouts. So if you get that rollover finished and you want to talk about other books, let us know.

[gamblingman]

Happens every where i bet and i bet recreationally small, such as cascade, wagerweb, betjam, bodog.

[gamblingman]

Oh and i hate to say it but it didn't happen that much at vwager and mvp lol

[marc]

Same thing happened to me at royal. And the one time I did say ok, I'll take the new line, they changed it on me agian. BAsically what they are saying is that you hvae to call in your wagers. But in order not to be lumped into the same category as Nine.com and some others, they try to pretend that they don't take away players online betting privledges.

[natrass]

I am stuck in a WR at betjam and it is torture. A complete waste of time. Like today I go to check the odds for the US masters ... guess what, nothing there. You cant place a line of the Masters ... and they call themselves a players paradise!!!

And, like the man says, if you do actually find a bet which isnt totally soft it will probably change when you want to be.

I hate this place ... my first "US branded" book and I cant wait to leave it.

[knicknut]

How is it to their advantage to make me call in my wagers? Makes it slower to ensure I don't scalp?

These lines aren't even scalping lines. The one this morning had the same exact line on VIP, Greek, etc.

My betting history there isn't even one of a large scalper. No huge bets, no obscure $3k on a Ottawa/Vancouver Over when I've never bet hockey before, nothing like that.

[knicknut]

Happened again today. I just wanted to see if any others have ever experienced this (at a relatively reputable book). I don't know how I'm ever going to get my money out of this book, and I'm not about to give up $300 bonus (plus $500 or so in winnings, not sure how that works) up for it.

Note: I also bet much less this time to see what would happen--only $500 on baseball game, much less than the limits, like I normally want to bet.

EDIT: I just threw $50 on a bad line and it STILL changed the line on me. Not by as much but wouldn't let me bet.

I still don't know why they're targeting me, and I doubt they'll admit to anything if I call or e-mail support.

Beware.

[Mudcat]

Sounds like they're sending you a strong message. They don't like something you've been doing (beating them to steam moves every time, perhaps?) I don't know.

You might have to settle for some less desirable lines just to complete your rollover.

[knicknut]

That's the thing I don't get, Mudcat. I haven't gotten any arbs there, I'm up only $500 after $5700 of wagering, I've only bet game lines and spreads at full vig. See my edit for a crappy line I just took for small money. Looks like it's neither big money nor good lines that make them move--it's me.

Am I right in saying going to support is worthless? They're just going to say "between when you entered your bet and confirmed it the line changed. We're sorry about this incovenience. You have the option to take it at the new line or cancel your wager." Even if I explain my 10 minute tests. If it is worth it to contact them, is there anything specific I should say? I've never dealt with SB support before and don't know how to get the actual answer out of them.

[magnavox]

LOL, what a pussy. Also, it looks like a "bad line" & "crappy line" means the same for you, when in fact it's just the opposite.

Anyway, if you bet a "crappy" line and it still moved you should have one heck of a line on the other side .Just bet it and quit whining. This is a public forum, you know? You expect an advice on how to deal with them, lol. Before you call they're gonna know everything you want to say to them.

[JoshW]

I think they way that books should use them is not to decided whether to reject an individual bet, but rather to put in a 30 second or hopefully less period to keep them from getting hit by obvious steam.

BetJM has about a minute delay with me which I find excessive.

Cascade has 30 seconds, but rarely moves, so I can't complain.

Royal has about a minute.

Hollywood and First Fidelity are about 5 seconds each for me.

Books that just reject over and over whether steam or not are abusing the system in my mind.

[natrass]

knicknut ... I am a bit of a moaner sometimes ... BUT

.... isnt this a breach of the terms and conditions?

I mean, if you are tied to a rollover then they know you have to accept any lines they give you. OK? So, where does this end??

If this is acceptable then they could give you 1.05 for your bets and stuff.

I think when you sign up to a book and accept WRs then you are saying "Ive looked at your book and your odds are OK so I could play there". You did not sign up to play at their book with a XX% reduction on every price.

I think you may consider documenting this. If they are 'targeting' you while they have you trapped in a WR then this is not on. Fair enough, if you werent in a WR you can walk away. But as you have no choice I personally would not tolerate it. If they dont want your business as a regular customer (which was what you signed up as) then they should waive the WR.

BetJamaica are appaling IMO. A rubbish book with rubbish lines and rubbish coverage.

Players Paradise??? My arse, Players Nightmare more likely.

.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by knicknut

Am I right in saying going to support is worthless? If it is worth it to contact them, is there anything specific I should say? I've never dealt with SB support before and don't know how to get the actual answer out of them.

If anything like that started happening to me I would give them a call. I'd just explain what I was experiencing and ask if something was wrong with my settings or if it's a permanent situation. There might be something to be learned from their answer.

I don't see how it can make things worse.

[natrass]

I can't see how it could be happening by accident mudcat? OK, a page wont load and stuff ... but prices always changing .. thats a policy decision not a software issue surely?

But, I agree it makes sense to let the book explain it. If they give out a BS answer maybe we could do a test on the forum?

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by natrass

I can't see how it could be happening by accident mudcat? OK, a page wont load and stuff ... but prices always changing .. thats a policy decision not a software issue surely?

But, I agree it makes sense to let the book explain it. If they give out a BS answer maybe we could do a test on the forum?

I have no idea what would come of it. But it is my experience that talking about things openly sometimes helps (both in sports betting and in life, if I may be so philosophical.)

Maybe they will spell out exactly what in his behavior led to this. From that, maybe he can either make them see they are mistaken and lift the restrictions, or at least he might know more about what sportsbooks look for and modify his behavior with future sports betting endeavours to avoid a recurrence.

Maybe he will learn that he will have less problems with placing bets by phone and he can complete his rollover that way.

I don't know. Like I say, I don't see how it can make things worse.

[Dark Horse]

Try calling in a bet. See what happens.

Rollover concern. - - If they still give you a bad line take the other side, and middle the game somewhere else. With an account at Skybook (free 1/2 point) it is easy to find middles.

Other option. - - The advantage of calling in a bet is that you can ask for the line upfront. If you find that they give you a bad line anyway, next time ask for the team you're fading. Then take your team at a better price.

[natrass]

To me, and its just my own opinion, but this is all wrong.

How about this. You go to a casino and the manager says "Ah, you're playing Blackjack. tell you what, if you play at least 200 hands I'll give you a $100 now as a bonus".

So you do ... why not? Anyway, after you play a few hands the manager doesnt say anything but switches the rule board. Blackjack now only pays 6/5, no doubling and no splitting allowed.

But you cant leave till you have played 200 hands. Is this fair?

If not what is the difference between having a player who has based his opinion on a book by its declared lines then finding out that once he is trapped by a WR they become the same book but with all their prices chopped.

If they cant provide the services of the book he joined then I think they have broken the agreement.

[JDK192]

This happened to me at 2 different books over the past 2 years, and I'm not a paranoid person. Exactly how you described knicknut. I was betting the max on each wager, though. The way around it is just to call in the bet. They quote you the line that they have and you tell them which side you want to bet. After they quote the line to you they can't change the price. Problem solved.

[knicknut]

Originally Posted by JDK192

This happened to me at 2 different books over the past 2 years, and I'm not a paranoid person. Exactly how you described knicknut. I was betting the max on each wager, though. The way around it is just to call in the bet. They quote you the line that they have and you tell them which side you want to bet. After they quote the line to you they can't change the price. Problem solved.

This is good news. I'll try this before pitching a bitch. I'll ask for the line on the whole game, not just one team, so they can't change it, too. I'll see how that works. Glad I'm not the only one, JDK. If I have problems with this it will lead to a discussion about my account and activities, but I don't want them to look at me any more than they have to, lest they label me a "professional gambler" and take my bonus away (although because of their actions I'm sure that I'm close to that distinction anyway).

I appreciate everyone else's responses. Please continue to share experiences so hopefully this can become useful to others.

Granted, there have been other books where

BTW, I meant bad line as in "one that would be bad for me to bet," not bad as in "inaccurate," which I know is a good thing for bettors.

[pags11]

sounds a little fishy to me for such a reputable book like betjamaica...

[imgv94]

Happens to me all the time at Pinnacle, happened 3 times today. Sometimes
the line will change in your favor, but 90% it doesn't. I love it when that
happens, I usually win. Hey I usually win anyway!!

[TLD]

Dishonest policy on the part of Bet Jamaica if this is true and there is not “more to the story.”

As I posted when Pinnacle was pulling this crap with me, it’s crooked for a bookmaker to quote you a line and not honor it. Granted, I don’t mean they have to leave it open for you forever; obviously lines change and they’re only obligated to give you the line if it hasn’t changed in the meantime. But what they cannot do is offer you a line (whether by phone or online) and then change it precisely because you accepted the offer. That’s a completely different animal from a line changing between the time they offered it to you and the time you declared you wanted to accept it, which happens all the time.

The problem is figuring out which is which, since a book presumably will always claim the line just happened to change before you committed to betting it. But the kind of experiment this poster claims to have run on Bet Jamaica is pretty much what I did with Pinnacle, and the result in both cases made it clear the lines were being changed in response to the attempted bet rather than before the attempted bet.

Thankfully whatever “list” I was on at Pinnacle lasted only two to three weeks as I recall, so now I’m back to the usual non-suspicious rate of bet rejections due to line changes. But when they’re playing that game with you, it’s unmistakable. You pretty much can’t get a bet in.

I’m surprised Bet Jamaica would be pulling this. I’m not surprised they’d be reducing a player’s limits, switching a player to phone only, etc., as pretty much every book has to manage certain players one way or another, but I’m surprised they’d choose a sleazy method like this. (By the way, I don’t buy that this poster is a newbie to forums, has never dealt with a sportsbook’s customer service by phone, is not betting steam, etc. Not saying I know one way or the other, but I can take an educated guess.)

In any case, as far as whether it would do any good to call the book, Bet Jamaica in my experience has excellent customer service. I would ask to speak directly to Scott. He has always been helpful and professional with me.

[slacker00]

I've had similar problems off and on at different books. I haven't played BetJam yet, so I cannot comment on them. But, I figure it's because I'm usually trying to hit soft lines, virtually playing steam, so I'm not suprised if the line moves against me before I get a confirmation.

I've noticed that the line is most volatile when the line first comes out, and then again right before the game starts. If you can place your bets somewhere in between when the line isn't fluctuating so much, you won't get hit so hard with changing lines. For example, I just bet a bunch of Arena games for tomorrow, and didn't get a single line change, but I also bet a bunch of NBA games for today and I got all kinds of movement against me.

If you are still getting a lot of moves against you during these "quiet times", I'd definitely be concerned. Maybe document when you bet and what lines moved, post them here, and see what the experts here can say to explain why this particular line might be moving.

BetJam might very well be trying to cool you, but I can't decide for myself without seeing which lines you are talking about, in particular. And even then, I might not be able to form an opinion. The more data you can provide, the more we might be able to form an opinion about it.

[pags11]

can anyone else confirm this with their betjamaica accounts?...

[Halifax]

The originator of this thread is bang-on with his assessment of what is going on at BetJamaica.

I have bet, and continue to bet, with several books that put me on the 30-60 second delay, and BetJamaica is the worst of the worst, as far as changing the line on me.

I have put bets in during the middle of the day, at 5:00 in the morning, and all times in between. In the late Fall / early Winter, I counted eleven times in a row (yes, 11 times) that I submitted a bet, only to have BetJamaica give me the old "Line Changed" message ... and the average bet size was probably only $200-300, so it's not like they were just rejecting big bets. The eleven rejections in a row was the final straw; after that, I ended up pulling all of my money from there, as it was pointless to try to continue putting bets in.

Cascade, SkyBook, VO Group, Hollywood,and First Fidelity all have me on the "delay", but all five of these places are reasonable about it ... I'm relatively certain that they only change the line on me if someone else actually beats me to the line by a couple of seconds.

Sadly, the same can't be said for BetJamaica. BetJamaica blatantly used my bet submissions as a way to inform them that their lines were getting to be a tad bit stale ... I'm 110% certain that noone else was beating me to the number ... it was simply a case of BetJamaica refusing to honour their posted lines. They were too lazy to keep them updated themselves, and apparently needed me (and others who are/were on the "delay" system) to update their lines for them.

Quite frankly, BetJamaica should be ashamed of themselves ... even BetRoyal only rejected 50-60% of my bet submissions when I was on the "delay" there ... with BetJamaica, it was 100% rejection.

If you SBR guys are talking to Scotty, ask him who I should send the invoice to for my "line-moving services" that I provided by submitting my bets.

[Halifax]

Originally Posted by TLD

Dishonest policy on the part of Bet Jamaica if this is true and there is not “more to the story.”

As I posted when Pinnacle was pulling this crap with me, it’s crooked for a bookmaker to quote you a line and not honor it. Granted, I don’t mean they have to leave it open for you forever; obviously lines change and they’re only obligated to give you the line if it hasn’t changed in the meantime. But what they cannot do is offer you a line (whether by phone or online) and then change it precisely because you accepted the offer. That’s a completely different animal from a line changing between the time they offered it to you and the time you declared you wanted to accept it, which happens all the time.

The problem is figuring out which is which, since a book presumably will always claim the line just happened to change before you committed to betting it. But the kind of experiment this poster claims to have run on Bet Jamaica is pretty much what I did with Pinnacle, and the result in both cases made it clear the lines were being changed in response to the attempted bet rather than before the attempted bet.

Thankfully whatever “list” I was on at Pinnacle lasted only two to three weeks as I recall, so now I’m back to the usual non-suspicious rate of bet rejections due to line changes. But when they’re playing that game with you, it’s unmistakable. You pretty much can’t get a bet in.

I’m surprised Bet Jamaica would be pulling this. I’m not surprised they’d be reducing a player’s limits, switching a player to phone only, etc., as pretty much every book has to manage certain players one way or another, but I’m surprised they’d choose a sleazy method like this. (By the way, I don’t buy that this poster is a newbie to forums, has never dealt with a sportsbook’s customer service by phone, is not betting steam, etc. Not saying I know one way or the other, but I can take an educated guess.)

In any case, as far as whether it would do any good to call the book, Bet Jamaica in my experience has excellent customer service. I would ask to speak directly to Scott. He has always been helpful and professional with me.

TLD:

Your Pinnacle situation is distinctly different from the BetJamaica situation.

-----------

Pinnacle has such a high volume of bets being put through them, and so many guys attempting to grab their lines for a quick scalp, that when you see a "Line Change" message from Pinnacle, you can rest assured that the line change actually was a direct result of someone beating you to the line by a second or two.

In the past, even if someone did beat you to the line by a couple of seconds, Pinnacle had a "grace period" programmed into their software which would (usually) allow the bet to go through. Two or three months ago, they did away with that "grace period" for a few days, and since then, they've been experimenting with the length and availability of this "grace period" ... that's why you experienced different rejection frequencies at Pinnacle.

---------------------

The BetJamaica situation is nothing like the Pinnacle situation. Firstly, BetJamaica doesn't have nearly the volume that Pinnacle does, nor do they have nearly as many juicy lines, so you don't normally have a bunch of people beating you to the line at BetJamaica.

At BetJamaica, it's a case of you submitting a bet (that noone else has tried to bet yet) ... while you're on the "delay", BetJamaica looks at the bet that you submitted and determines whether the line is a "clone / market line", or if the line is far enough "off market" that they don't want to give you the bet at that line ... if they deem that their line is far enough "off market", they will reject your bet and give you the "Line Change" notification, even though there was noone else ahead of you trying to make that same bet.

In effect, you are doing the linesman's work for him, by notifying BetJamaica whenever they have a line that's "off market".

And that sucks, in a very sleazy way.

[knicknut]

Well, calling worked as expected (thanks).

I actually got really lucky and found on arb and 2 scalps in 5 minutes, betting the first online (as it was a point spread at full juice, Pinn's got to +110) then the last two money lines, a 4c and a 1c scalp.

Now I just have to cross my fingers tonight and hope I never have to play there again. Although the BJ call was relatively pain free (although the first mumbled something less than coherent English, then wouldn't repeat herself if I said "what?" but prompt me for an answer, making me feel I missed out on something.

One thing of note: I asked for the maximum for one NBA line (not sure if it was lower b/c of time). She had to put me on hold for 30 seconds before telling me. Not sure if she just didn't know the maximum or was having a supervisor check my account to see if I needed to be throttled. Had a max of $2k.

Oh, and I'm flattered TLD by your skeptcism of my newb status, but I've never posted here before under another name and I've never spoken with SB support. I guess I'm betting steam because I use SBL to find the best lines.

[TLD]

Very informative posts Halifax.

I agree there is a difference between offering a line to someone and not guaranteeing even the most minimal time to bet it without it changing for other reasons (Pinnacle, when they eliminated the grace period), versus offering a line and then refusing an acceptance of the offer because the very acceptance makes them realize they’d preferred to have offered a different line instead (Bet Jamaica). I would argue that both are dishonorable practices, though Bet Jamaica’s is even worse. But I can understand that some would say the Pinnacle one is not objectionable.

My one question would be: From your post, it sounds like the changes at Pinnacle (elimination of grace period, reinstituting of grace period, experimenting with different lengths of grace period) were across the board changes rather than singled out for certain accounts. But in my experience, when I asked about the end of the grace period (which, again, is really unmistakable—you get few if any bets in during halftimes and such when lines are volatile), a few people said they were experiencing the same thing but most said there was no change for them in the rate of bet rejection. So it certainly seemed like it differed from account to account.

Do you know if their changes are across the board or specific to accounts like that?

Knicknut, I’m glad you made some progress with customer service. No offense intended of course in inferring you might be a tad sharper than your posts state. Apparently Bet Jamaica thinks you are, as a book has no incentive to take such countermeasures against the 99% of their customers that bet at negative EV over the long run. I guess you should be flattered at their response to you, as inconvenient and annoying as it is.

[TLD]

Also, I forgot to mention, Halifax, but in another respect my experience didn’t fully correspond to what you posted. (Not saying you’re wrong by any means, but just reporting what I experienced.) As I believe I noted in a post here back at the time, I did with Pinnacle what Knicknut apparently did with Bet Jamaica. I refreshed the lines every several seconds ( I took it off automatic refresh and refreshed manually) and if the line stayed the same every time I then attempted to bet it. Every time I got the error message that the line had changed. To me that indicated they were doing what you described Bet Jamaica doing. If it were just a matter of eliminating the grace period and letting the lines change naturally as other people bet them, why would the posted lines not change upon refresh?

I tested it many, many times, so coincidence is statistically almost impossible. I guess it could have been some temporary flaw in the software where it was refreshing the page without updating to the current lines, but I doubt it.

Anyway, I’m just glad it’s not happening now, and I just get the usual tolerable number of bet rejections that one would expect at a place of such high volume.

[knicknut]

Wow, interesting to see that Pinnacle would do that. I always thought they were the beacon of morality and truth around here.

Of course, no offense taken, TLM, if anything I was flattered by you (and I guess by JM in a sense) that I'm seen as a sharp bettor. I definitely line shop, but I'm pretty limited to arbing at this point. Unfortunately I can't find much information on more complicated methods (predicting line moves, mixing up front betting with in progress betting, and other things I probably haven't thought of). This is probably due to the fact that those with the information won't give it out because it reduces their profits. (I feel the same way with online casinos.) I'll keep developing my own methods, I guess, and I'll aim to be an expert like you thought I might have been (hah).

Good discussion guys.

[TLD]

Good post knicknut, and it’s nice to make your acquaintance.

I’m still learning when it comes to a lot of this stuff too, and a lot of what I do know I’ve picked up recently from reading these forums. So you’re in the right place.

As far as Pinnacle, they’re far from perfect. The reason they’re regarded as more or less above criticism in the forums is they have some of the most important things going for them. Number one, your money is safe. (Books stiff you for two reasons: A) They don’t have the money, or B) They have the money but they’re crooks who decide they’d rather keep it. Pinnacle is almost unanimously regarded as having sharp lines where they win their unbalanced action substantially more often than they lose, which presumably has resulted in their accumulating more money than God. And they pay—they have no history of stalling withdrawals, closing up shop and reopening under a new name, etc.) Second, their low vig and sometimes non-consensus lines means there are more middle and scalp opportunities there than at any other big name, safe book. There are probably a lot of people who make a living at sportsbetting today who would cease to do so tomorrow if Pinnacle decided to close down or change their business model.

So it’s sometimes considered sacrilegious to criticize them, as if doing so somehow implies that one doesn’t appreciate them or doesn’t recognize the value they provide sportsbettors. But frankly they’re not spotless or even close to it. I think they have flaws and pull crap to a degree at least equal to the average of the big name books.