[Scorpion]

He is Mike Vick in a larger frame, I thought thr NFL was thru with this QB prototype.

He's dumb in so many ways. He didn't even call out the defensive blitzes and O-line adjustments to his team, the H-back did. He's years away from being a capable starter

Vick, Young, McNabb, Aaron Brooks, Quincy Carter, Akili Smith, .......
I would love to take credit for the following statement but I can't it was made by Pat Kirwan of Sirius NFL Radio:
"NO TEAM HAS EVER WON A SUPER BOWL WITH A RUN AROUND QUARTERBACK."
This isn't college ball, this is the NFL, until somebody breaks the aforementioned mold I don't get jacked up about these kind of quarterbacks.

[The Great One]

Yeah, the running, black athletic quarterback doesn't work in the NFL I'll keep this short because I probably have 50 posts on here that rip on Young. It just blows my mind that these GM's get paid all this $$, have all these tests, and still fall flat on their face when i can tell by the way he plays, his game doesn't translate well.

NO BLACK RUNNING QUARTERBACK CAN BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE NFL

1. He can't hit a receiver in stride.Kinda important in the NFL
2. He's really only about 5'11" BECAUSE OF HIS SIDEARM DELIVERY.
3. He's flat out dumb and has admitted he's gangsta which just can't be good.
4. All previous running quarterbacks are not successful in the NFL
5. He comes out of shotgun offense with 2 formation and literally 8 plays.
6 His passing skills won't "come around" like people think. That just doesn't happen.(Michael Vick has exactly two, 300 yard passing games
7. He's not coachable. mack Brown can't coach anyway but has admitted he was better off using his athletic ability in college and not thinking. But that doesn't work in the NFL at all.
8. If everything with him pans out which it won't, his career is still over by 30 plus you know he will at least miss one full season to an injury. Happens with all black quarterbacks.



Think about this. What is the difference between him and matt Jones froml last year aside that Jones was much faster than Young. He's(Jones) an inch taller. But no one even though of making Jones who was a 4 year college starter on less than stellar teams a quarterback. Young is a little more elsusive but Jones is much faster and we have to assume much smarter.

[SBR_John]

Wow! Thats the short version?

I think he will be much like McNair. They are even best friends oddly enough. Air came out a year early too correct? He took some time to figure out how to play in the NFL and was an above avg QB when healthy. One Superbowl start and 20 inches from a win assuming I have my memory straight which after last night I can not be 100% sure.

So yea, Young will probably produce Air McNair type career numbers.

[The Great One]

Originally Posted by SBR_John

Wow! Thats the short version?

I think he will be much like McNair. They are even best friends oddly enough. Air came out a year early too correct? He took some time to figure out how to play in the NFL and was an above avg QB when healthy. One Superbowl start and 20 inches from a win assuming I have my memory straight which after last night I can not be 100% sure.

So yea, Young will probably produce Air McNair type career numbers.

McWheelchair is the most overated thing next to Vick. As a Colts fan, I'm hoping the Texans take Bush and the Titans take Young, I would consider that a great draft no matter who the Colts take then.

I don't know how many games he's missed, but I do know he sucks. He's always got this injury and that injury. He's always day-to-day and thats how he got his popularity. By the media acting life he is sooo tough. Because the media can't criticze him because that would be racist. McWheelchair is another example of the black quarterbacks career ending early. He was drafted in 1995 when he was 21. He we are at about that time and think how many games he has missed and his overall productivity. Vick also has missed one 25% of his career at this point. McNabb missed about 11 or 12 weeks with some injury 3 years back when Feely came in and performed better than him. Culpepper has now missed pretty much an entire season. I said it before his injury that Brad Jonhson was the better quarterback. And Aaron Brooks just sucks so it doesn't matter if he's healthy because if he was back at UVA in 2006, he would even make 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all conference.

BTW: I'm still waiting for McWheelchair to give the other half of the MVP trophy to Peyton in 03.

Anothyer thing about Fumbles McScramble, he has had many fumbles in his 3 year career at Texas for a quarterabck. Yet another reason not to waste a FIRST DAY pick on him.

[bigboydan]

Steve Young did run alot during that era, and he won a superbowl ring.

[SBR_John]

We agree that the running QB's are gonna have a lot of lost time due to injury. Also, have you ever seen Vince young out of pads? He has real thin legs and a big upper body. Now I'm no expert but I think he could have a tough time staying healthy with his build. But still...after all this... he will go 3rd to 8th. He will start by the 10th game and he will produce Air "Wheelchair" McNair type career numbers and be above avg imo. So waste a 3 to 9 pick?? for McNair type numbers??

[Mudcat]

I gotta say. I find a lot of racism in this thread. It brings back memories. It wasn't so long ago that certain types of guys would argue that black Managers could never have success in MLB. They would point out a few black managers that had failed to win it all, contrive a loose set of common characteristics, lump the whole race together - and they figured their case was made.

We don't hear from those guys so much any more.



As for this thread, there are some reasonable (although shallow) points being made about certain individuals. Some points are just incorrect:

Originally Posted by The Great One

you know he will at least miss one full season to an injury. Happens with all black quarterbacks.

Come on. That's just racist and wrong.

I can see how a player's physical attributes and mental capacities are relevant to a discussion of potential success in the NFL. But I'm not getting how the argument somehow hinges on their skin color. Not being able to hit a receiver in stride is only relevant if you're black?

Can't a discussion about Vince Young just be about Vince Young?

For the record, I think he will go through some growing pains but have some good success in the NFL. I think the game and coaching will continue to evolve and a quarterback's ability to run (no matter what color he is) will become increasingly important.

But I don't pretend to be psychic. That's just my projection. I could be wrong.

[The Great One]

Originally Posted by bigboydan

Steve Young did run alot during that era, and he won a superbowl ring.

He's also white and has a brain and an accurate arm to go with it. Big difference.He 's not back in the pocket, looking at his 1st read, then just taking off.

Also, he has the intangibles and incredible talent on his team too.

Come on, they are two completely different style quarterbacks. Steve Young was even somewhat cerebral. A poor mans Peyton Manning with his audibles.

[Jay Edgar]

There is a lot of ugliness in what The Great One is saying.

I second Mudcat's post and I'd go farther --
if you can't express your opinion about something without making statements that anyone can see would inflame and insult millions of people, then you should not be posting the opinion.

Whatever valid points you have to make will surely be made by someone without the outrageously offensive component. Best leave it to them.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by bigboydan

Steve Young did run alot during that era, and he won a superbowl ring.

Young was a very good passer also, completed over 67% of his passes and he didnt throw too many dumb INTS

DUMB qbs dont win super bowls

[The Great One]

I get this all the time. Your not the first to call my criticism of Young racism. Do you think there is a coincidence in past Dual-threat quarterbacks( how's that) low success rate and high injury rate? Vick and Culpepper tore their ACL's trying to run away from people.

You want fact. Michael Vick has thrown for 300 yards in a game twice in his career. Peyton Manning has never missed a game due to injury. He never runs. Carson Palmer is white and tore his ACL. Was that the same as Vicks and Cuulpepper? NO.
That was in the pocket and was supposedly a freak accident.

How about this. Go through points 1-8 up there that I list. Can you refute any of those? Seriously, i'll listen. I think I would be a perfect GM. Every draft I think to myself how overpaid these GM's are for such simple decisions.

I'm not a racist, I'm a realist. Are there fundamental differences between whites and blacks? In sports and in life? You bet. But we are talking sports here.

I'm a Warren Moon fan. You know why he was successful in the NFL? The first reason was because at that time defenses were not all that accustomed to defending the run and shoot. But he was far from a scrambler. He was a pocket passer and a cerebral one. That is a rarity with the black Quarterback these days though.

And in regards to Youngs completion percentage, thats a little scewed because of the talent level he had at Texas and also, many of those passes he was hitting stationary targets. In the NFL, they don't exist. Your margin of error on a throw is minimal. The same goes for matt Leinart too, but the difference is Leinart could hit people in stride.

Remeber the 4th and 1 at Notre Dame when Leinart hit Jarrett in stride on a fly pattern to get inside the 5 before the "Bush Push". Do you think Vince could make that throw? Your lying to yourself if you think he can.



From an athletic quarterback stand point, Peyton manning is probably the least athletic qurterback in the NFL, but is easily the best? Why is that? He is probably also the slowest quarterback in the NFL.

I'm not a racist. I call things the way they are and I'm usually right on.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by bigboydan

Michael Vick on the WCO:

I thought the West Coast offense was supposed to be a lot of quick, dink-and-dunk passes and it's not being run that way. I'm not saying it's because of coach Knapp, but he's calling the plays. My perception of the West Coast thing is starting to change too. We're not doing what I see Seattle doing or San Francisco doing or Green Bay doing. We're not doing those things. I don't know if it's Knapp changing those things around but as far as I know, it's not the West Coast system as far as the way we run it.
We're not dinking and dunking the way it's supposed to be done. It may be hurting me. It may be hurting the offense. I'm a little lost right now.

Hey, uh, Ron Mexico, perhaps the reason that you don't run a pure West Coast offense is because you're not smart enough to read defenses and have no idea how to be a good quarterback. Matt Schaub is a better QB than you.

Vick blames most of his problems on the knee injury he suffered in week 4. Perhaps that's because he's a running back in a wide receiver's body. If Vick can't juke and cut, he's useless because he is not an NFL quality QB. The biggest joke is that he made the above statement from Honolulu. Vick deserves to be in the Pro Bowl as much as the Lombardi trophy belongs in Pittsburgh.

Vick is DUMB too

NFL is too complicate dfor these clowns, they are DUMB, why do you think they do so poorly on their intelligenence(wonderlic) tests??

[The Great One]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Vick is DUMB too

NFL is too complicate dfor these clowns, they are DUMB, why do you think they do so poorly on their intelligenence(wonderlic) tests??

I agree. I tried to be a little more politcally correct for credibility reasons, but they do seem to be dumber than sh it.

I hate hearing interviews sometimes with those morons and say something like "We was playing good". Hello dummy, linking verbs are our friends. Can you say "were". Ridiculous, a multi-millionaire that can't even put a verbal sentence together.

[Scorpion]

WONDELIC TEST SCORES....NO QB WHO SCORED UNDER 20 HAS WON THE SUPER BOWL

50 is highest.

http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic/Wonderlic.htm

Wallace, Seneca
2003
Iowa State
12


Brooks, Aaron
1999
Virginia
17


Blake, Jeff
1992
East Carolina
17

Cunningham, Randall
1985
UNLV
15

McNair, Steve
1995
Alcorn State
15


Smith, Akili
1999
Oregon
37, 15
Many suspect Smith of cheating because he showed such improvement.
http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/jul03/158713.asp
Smith has been suspected of taking shortcuts ever since he took the Wonderlic test before the 1999 draft. After scoring 15 out of 50 on his first try, Smith's score ballooned to 37 on his second attempt.


Stewart, Kordell
1995
Colorado
12


McNabb, Donovan
1999
Syracuse
16, 12
took it two times, the second score was lower than the first


VINCE YOUNG
TEXAS
6, 15

[Scorpion]

Davey, Rohan
2002
LSU
17


Dantzler, Woodrow *
2002
Clemson
17


Garrard, David
2002
East Carolina
14

Bishop, Michael
1999
Kansas State
10

Martin, Tee
2000
Tennessee
11



A breakdown of the scoring looks like this:

50= highest possible score, superior intelligence
21= average intelligence
14= equivalent to unskilled JANITOR
Below 14= moron

[Scorpion]

Here's a little more about the Wonderlic test, from an ESPN.com article (espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228.html):

Each year, about 2.5 million job applicants, in every line of work, take the Wonderlic. The average NFL combiner scores about the same as the average applicant for any other job, a 21. A 20 indicates the test-taker has an IQ of 100, which is average.

This assessment roughly corresponds to the averages revealed, according to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, by an NFL personnel man in Paul Zimmerman's "The New Thinking man's Guide to Pro Football," which are:

Offensive tackles: 26
Centers: 25
Quarterbacks: 24
Guards: 23
Tight Ends: 22
Safeties: 19
Middle linebackers: 19
Cornerbacks: 18
Wide receivers: 17
Fullbacks: 17
Halfbacks: 16

The average scores in other professions look like this:

Chemist: 31
Programmer: 29
Newswriter: 26
Sales: 24
Bank teller: 22
Clerical Worker: 21
Security Guard: 17
Warehouse: 15

Charlie Wonderlic Jr., president of Wonderlic Inc., says, "A score of 10 is literacy, that's about all we can say."

[The Great One]

Good info. Not surpring at all with some of those scores. Jay Cutler got a 29 this year. Eli Manning got a 33 a couple years ago and I beleive Peyton got a 30 if I remember right.

I remember some black potemtial college drafteee was interviwd about the test and he said something along thse lines. "It wasn't really fair. They give you a time limit and try to trick you up with different questions and mess with your mind" I can't remember his name but he wasn't a quarterback.

No sh it. Is that not the point homeboy?

[The Great One]

This happens on every message board that I ever post on regarding this subject. Someone tells me I am wrong and a racist, but they can't back it up with any kind of evidence or past performance, or fact. They take the easy way out and try to attack my credilbilty by acting like I am a racist. But like I said, everything I said in this post is correct. If I'm wrong, i will admit it.

I posted more supporting details in the "Marcus Vuck" thread if someone cares to check that out too.

[isetcap]

Originally Posted by The Great One

This happens on every message board that I ever post on regarding this subject. Someone tells me I am wrong and a racist, but they can't back it up with any kind of evidence or past performance, or fact. They take the easy way out and try to attack my credilbilty by acting like I am a racist. But like I said, everything I said in this post is correct. If I'm wrong, i will admit it.

I posted more supporting details in the "Marcus Vuck" thread if someone cares to check that out too.

The issue is not black or white, it is style. A run-first quarterback of any color will find it difficult to keep a starting position in the NFL. See Eric Crouch. Vince Young will not fail as a NFL quarterback because he is black. Vince Young is not stupid because he is black. I think the majority of people that post here would prefer that you stop trying to attach color as the reason they can't be successful. If you genuinely think it is a color issue then you are in fact an ignorant racist and you are wrong.

[Scorpion]

Then why do blacks score so low on their intelligent(wonderlic) tests?

Its a combination of things

[The Great One]

Originally Posted by isetcap

The issue is not black or white, it is style. A run-first quarterback of any color will find it difficult to keep a starting position in the NFL. See Eric Crouch. Vince Young will not fail as a NFL quarterback because he is black. Vince Young is not stupid because he is black. I think the majority of people that post here would prefer that you stop trying to attach color as the reason they can't be successful. If you genuinely think it is a color issue then you are in fact an ignorant racist and you are wrong.

Where exactly am i wrong? Eric Crouch didn't have the heighth for a shot at NFL quarterback. What is the difference between Matt Jones and Vince Young besides Jones is faster than Young?

I told you, I'm not a racist. Everything I said is true.

[isetcap]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Then why do blacks score so low on their intelligent(wonderlic) tests?

Its a combination of things

The Wonderlic is an IQ test with only 50 questions -- it's a short version of the longer test routinely given to kids. Players have just 12 minutes to take it, and most don't finish. But, in fact, the average NFL test-taker scores a little above average.

Considering the above fact and the fact that the NFL is composed of 75% blacks, I suppose that makes your question agenda-based and therefore I won't qualify with any additional response.

[SBR_John]

The Great One made a valid point on style. Its not racism its a style and not just a black QB although most happen to be black. Personally I like the added dimension of run or throw. Fran Tarkenton and Archie Manning were great runners and so was Roger Staubach and many others. Errr footnote: they was white as a ghost

What about Warren Moon and Doug Williams who were runners early and settled down into pocket passers later in their very good careers? Both black I might add.

[The Great One]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

I gotta say. I find a lot of racism in this thread. It brings back memories. It wasn't so long ago that certain types of guys would argue that black Managers could never have success in MLB. They would point out a few black managers that had failed to win it all, contrive a loose set of common characteristics, lump the whole race together - and they figured their case was made.

We don't hear from those guys so much any more.



As for this thread, there are some reasonable (although shallow) points being made about certain individuals. Some points are just incorrect:



Come on. That's just racist and wrong.

I can see how a player's physical attributes and mental capacities are relevant to a discussion of potential success in the NFL. But I'm not getting how the argument somehow hinges on their skin color. Not being able to hit a receiver in stride is only relevant if you're black?

Can't a discussion about Vince Young just be about Vince Young?

For the record, I think he will go through some growing pains but have some good success in the NFL. I think the game and coaching will continue to evolve and a quarterback's ability to run (no matter what color he is) will become increasingly important.

But I don't pretend to be psychic. That's just my projection. I could be wrong.

I said black quarterbacks miss at least a year due to injury. You said thats wrong and that I was incorrect and pretty much said i was a racist. How is that wrong? Here are some FACTS.

Vick: Broken leg in pre-season now 3 years ago i think. Missed entire season. may have came back by week 15 or something.

Culpepper: Missed this past season with an ACL and other ligament tears from running.

McNabb: What was it, 3 or 4 seasons ago, missed nearly the entire season when Feely came in and the Eagles actually played better, then Feely got traded to the Dolphins to avoid any problems.

McNair: Do I really jave to get into this one? When is the guy healthy? There's a reason his name is McWheelchair.

All of those guys are "dual threat quarterbacks" as the politically acceptable term is. all have missed considerable time. These are not opinions, but rather FACTS.

Peyton manning has played 8 straight seasons and has not missed a start. He is the prototypical pocket passer. Why has never been hurt? Because he doesn't run.

[BrentCrude]

He better hope for some kind of signing bonus and stash it away because he will be a flop and be cut,recut,cut,recut and end up playing for the Regina Roughriders and be a star up there making about as much as union Safeway women cashiers up there.Great being overpaid wages as a cashier but for a so called stud quarterback who spends money like a gangsta it don't go too far.He will be involved in stickups and holdups as fast as you can say Maurice Clarette.

[Razz]

Bump

[pags11]

Vince led them to victory again today...nice...

[justbet]

young has looked VERY good as of late. he is smart when he runs and has been passing well. Where is the great one now?

[TexAg001]

Pags..come on man. He wasnt on the field for most of the game and when he did he looked awful. Not saying he hasnt done well as a rookie but I think its more acurate to say David Garrard led the Titans to victory.

[pags11]

texag,

I love that people have your frame of mind my friend, because I just capitalize on it...the bottom line is that this guy is a winner and Tennessee is a covering machine right now...it doesn't matter how he or the team does it, they get shit done and they made me money...

[imgv94]

The Titans still would of won yesterday even if SBR_JOHN was the QB. Vince Young did nothing to help..

[pags11]

I heard sbr john can't throw the deep out...

[tacomax]

Originally Posted by SBR_John

The Great One made a valid point on style.

The Resident racist of 2006 makes one of his many thinly-veiled racist posts but you ignore that and give him style points.

I'm curious as to what happened to you on Sunday night. Did you have a dream and the ghosts of Malcolm X, MLK and Nelson Mandela spoke to you? Is it like the black version of Scrooge?

[Mr. Peepers]

I would consider A. Rodgers a very good running QB

[jjgold]

Young showed me a lot this year. I think he can be very good now.

I am reversing my decision