[Bullajami]

The Dowd Report makes numerous references to Rose betting on the Reds. It does not make any references to Rose betting against the Reds.

The agreement that Rose made with Commissioner Giamatti stipulated that Rose did not admit or deny guilt and that no formal finding would be made regarding whether or not Rose bet on baseball. It also stated that neither party could make public statements contradicting the agreement. Less than a day after signing it Commissioner Giamatti stated publicly stated that he believed that Rose bet on baseball. (Nine days later he fell over dead.)

Its hard to feel too sorry for Rose. In his book he admits the allegations that he bet on baseball were true while simultaneously complaining that he got screwed by The Commissioner. The baseball exclusion law entitles the commissioner to be the sole judge and jury in the matter and judicial rules of evidence do not apply. I can't quite digest how a person was ill-used by the system when they really did what they were accused of.

But...he's the only person to ever make the all-star team at five different positions. More hits than anyone ever. More games played than anyone ever. ETC...

HoF.

[Doc JS]

Originally Posted by AC1318

why not
on the field he gave 100% so hall of fame should be without question

so what if he gambled a bit so does everyone hear

I could think of a million worse things he could of done

all the assholes with their nose in the air are in charge of making that call so it won't happen but IMO it is a bunch of shit

even if gambling is against the rules so are drug enhancements I still see them dopers playing

This isn't complicated. The reason he isn't in the HOF is he isn't eligible for the HOF. He signed a life time ban. And then proceeded to lie about it for the next twenty years.

There is a poster up in every club house in Major League Baseball explaining the penalties for gambling on baseball. Pete passed those posters every day he gambled while he was in MLB.

Doc

[daggerkobe]

Dowd has stated that he believes Rose bet against his own team and would have proven it eventually had he had more time to investigate. But what he already discovered was already so damning that Rose had no choice but to immediately agree to the lifetime banishment. In exchange no evidence would be made public. He took advantage of this gesture by proclaiming his innocence for 14 years.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know he bet against the Reds. Only an idiot would bet his own team everytime. What gambler wouldn't take advantage of it..... a dumb managerial move here or there means $15,000 in his pocket. I means that a gambler's dream!!!!!!!!!!!

But I guess we'll have to wait for his next book to get that confession.

[daggerkobe]

What if Rose bowled over Ray Fosse and separated his shoulder at the All-Star game because he bet on the game?????? Wouldn't surprise me.

[ryanXL977]

**** pete rose
he is a scumbag
gambling on your own games makes it no different than wwf wrestling
he can affect outcomes
of course he bet against his own team
wouldnt you? if it was a lock to lose!
come on people
wake up

where are those wmd's ? you guys believe that shit too if you blve rose didnt bet against the reds

[losturmarbles]

he did NOT bet against the Reds. There was never any proof that that he did. period. and Dowd was desperately looking for evidence of him throwing games. NEVER FOUND ANY.

Even so he still shouldnt have bet on the Reds either.

re-instate him and HOF for sure

[element1286]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

he did NOT bet against the Reds. There was never any proof that that he did. period. and Dowd was desperately looking for evidence of him throwing games. NEVER FOUND ANY.

Even so he still shouldnt have bet on the Reds either.

re-instate him and HOF for sure

Doesn't matter he broke the cardinal fukking rule. He deserves everything he gets. If you let Rose in, Shoeless Joe Jackson should be in as well.

[MBENZ]

This will be a neverending argument between people who saw him play and the younger generation that has read what they want to see.If everybody could separate what he did on the field between what he did afterwards,this would be a slamdunk,HOF period.

[CrazyLou]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

he did NOT bet against the Reds. There was never any proof that that he did. period. and Dowd was desperately looking for evidence of him throwing games. NEVER FOUND ANY.

Even so he still shouldnt have bet on the Reds either.

re-instate him and HOF for sure

Welcome to SBR bud, stick around...

[element1286]

Originally Posted by MBENZ

This will be a neverending argument between people who saw him play and the younger generation that has read what they want to see.If everybody could separate what he did on the field between what he did afterwards,this would be a slamdunk,HOF period.

His play on the field doesn't mean anything.

[MBENZ]

Originally Posted by element1286

His play on the field doesn't mean anything.

That deserves somewhat of an explanation.

[daggerkobe]

I watched him play, even saw his record hit as it came against my team. But that doesn't excuse him for breaking the one rule that carries the lifetime ban. He was reminded of the rule everytime he walked in the club house for thousands of times.

Doesn't matter if Dowd found solid evidence on whether he bet against the Reds. His job was to find evidence he bet on baseball. Unfortunately the investigation was immediately halted when Rose agreed to the lifetime ban. Imagine all the dirt they wouldve uncovered had he been allowed to continue.

Regardless if the lifetime banishment was good enough for him when he signed it then its good enough for me. This is like someone on trial for murder ageeeing to lifetime sentence then wanting to be released later. Nuh uh it don't work that way.

[element1286]

Originally Posted by MBENZ

That deserves somewhat of an explanation.

He bet on baseball, and is thus banned from baseball. His numbers are Hall of Fame worthy, but they don't mean anything because he will/should never have the opportunity to enter the Hall of Fame.

[losturmarbles]

Originally Posted by element1286

Doesn't matter he broke the cardinal fukking rule. He deserves everything he gets. If you let Rose in, Shoeless Joe Jackson should be in as well.

thats not really a fair comparison, but i guess can see your point

shoeless joe accepted money to throw the world series, and whether or not joe was guilty or innocent of throwing doesnt matter since he accepted the money.

but rose was never paid to throw any games. rose like to gamble. and you bet on what you know. he knew baseball. he had an edge. Im sure he knew a lot of what was going on in different NL clubhouses that he could use to handicap games.

the only thing that rose was guilty of was betting on baseball. not fixing, not throwing

was that inappropriate as being a manager or player? yes, but if youre going to take a hard stand and say that he should still be banned and not let in the HOF, then you should also be campaigning for the life banning of any mlb that has tested positive for steroids and also for bud selig for looking the other way.

[element1286]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

thats not really a fair comparison, but i guess can see your point

shoeless joe accepted money to throw the world series, and whether or not joe was guilty or innocent of throwing doesnt matter since he accepted the money.

but rose was never paid to throw any games. rose like to gamble. and you bet on what you know. he knew baseball. he had an edge. Im sure he knew a lot of what was going on in different NL clubhouses that he could use to handicap games.

the only thing that rose was guilty of was betting on baseball. not fixing, not throwing

was that inappropriate as being a manager or player? yes, but if youre going to take a hard stand and say that he should still be banned and not let in the HOL, then you should also be campaigning for the life banning of any mlb that has tested positive for steriods and also for bud selig for looking the other way.

Completely different situation as far as steroids. First, you have to get irrefutable evidence that a player did take steroids to do anything about it. Second, players who have failed a drug test are punished by being suspended. I don't support going above and beyond to ban these guys from the Hall of Fame, and I don't support congressional hearings. If rules were made to harshen the punishments for steroid use I would have no problem with them. But I don't support bending the rules to keep guys out of the Hall of Fame, and I don't support bending the rules to put guys into the Hall of Fame.

[daggerkobe]

How can anyone admit he bet on Reds games but didn't fix it when he could easily do so. He could do many subtle things to influence the outcome. Such as resting his best players on days he bets against himself or leaving in a struggling pitcher longer than normal. Or call for a hit and run with a slow runner on first and strikeout prone hitter at bat. So many things he could do to sabatage his own team. But its a fact that he wouldn't bet on the Reds when Soto And another pitcher were on the mound. Why not?

[element1286]

Originally Posted by daggerkobe

How can anyone admit he bet on Reds games but didn't fix it when he could easily do so. He could do many subtle things to influence the outcome. Such as resting his best players on days he bets against himself or leaving in a struggling pitcher longer than normal. Or call for a hit and run with a slow runner on first and strikeout prone hitter at bat. So many things he could do to sabatage his own team. But its a fact that he wouldn't bet on the Reds when Soto And another pitcher were on the mound. Why not?

I agree, I don't think we will ever know how much of an impact Rose had on the games he bet on.

[MJFtheGenius]

anyone can manage a baseball team

If he was black no one here would support him to be allowed to manage

unreal

[losturmarbles]

Originally Posted by element1286

Completely different situation as far as steroids. First, you have to get irrefutable evidence that a player did take steroids to do anything about it. Second, players who have failed a drug test are punished by being suspended. I don't support going above and beyond to ban these guys from the Hall of Fame, and I don't support congressional hearings. If rules were made to harshen the punishments for steroid use I would have no problem with them. But I don't support bending the rules to keep guys out of the Hall of Fame, and I don't support bending the rules to put guys into the Hall of Fame.

ok lol
let me make sure i have your position clear:

if you've been accused of fixing games: you don't need evidence to prove it,
if you've been accused of taking steroids: there must be "irrefutable evidence"

if you've been accused of fixing games: LIFETIME BAN from baseball
if you've been accused of taking steroids: (after "irrefutable evidence") suspension (year?) and HOF? - sure, just not the first year that youre eligible.

lol youre hilarious man. i think anyone can see youre blatantly biased against pete rose.

[element1286]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

ok lol
let me make sure i have you position clear:

if you've been accused of fixing games: you don't need evidence to prove it,
if you've been accused of taking steriods: there must be "irrefutable evidence"

if you've been accused of fixing games: LIFETIME BAN from baseball
if you've been accused of taking steriods: (after "irrefutable evidence") suspension (year?) and HOL? - sure, just not the first year that youre eligble.

lol youre hilarious man. i think anyone can see youre blatantly biased against pete rose.

Pete Rose bet on games. He admitted it. Betting on games carry a lifetime ban from baseball. Getting caught with Steroids does not carry a lifetime ban from baseball. Those are the rules, I didn't write them.

[losturmarbles]

Originally Posted by daggerkobe

How can anyone admit he bet on Reds games but didn't fix it when he could easily do so. He could do many subtle things to influence the outcome. Such as resting his best players on days he bets against himself or leaving in a struggling pitcher longer than normal. Or call for a hit and run with a slow runner on first and strikeout prone hitter at bat. So many things he could do to sabatage his own team. But its a fact that he wouldn't bet on the Reds when Soto And another pitcher were on the mound. Why not?

do you even understand how he got busted? did anybody roll on him about betting against the reds and sabotaging games? no. why not? bc either 1> it never happened or 2> there was a bigger squeeze going on (like out of a mafia movie) and rose was the pawn that was stuck in the middle. either way it doesnt fit into your theory of just because he easily couldve means he definitely did.
using that logic then you can say anybody that owns a gun is a murderer and anybody that drinks is an alcoholic.

[element1286]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

do you even understand how he got busted? did anybody roll on him about betting against the reds and sabotaging games? no. why not? bc either 1> it never happened or 2> there was a bigger squeeze going on (like out of a mafia movie) and rose was the pawn that was stuck in the middle. either way it doesnt fit into your theory of just because he easily couldve means he definitely did.
using that logic then you can say anybody that owns a gun is a murderer and anybody that drinks is an alcoholic.

Maybe the same thing happened to Shoeless Joe Jackson as well.

You can rationalize it all you want, but what he did carries a lifetime ban.

[daggerkobe]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

do you even understand how he got busted? did anybody roll on him about betting against the reds and sabotaging games? no. why not? bc either 1> it never happened or 2> there was a bigger squeeze going on (like out of a mafia movie) and rose was the pawn that was stuck in the middle. either way it doesnt fit into your theory of just because he easily couldve means he definitely did.
using that logic then you can say anybody that owns a gun is a murderer and anybody that drinks is an alcoholic.

So fixing games he was directly involved in is farfetched but a mafia setting him up isn't?

Let me ask you a question. Why did Pete bet Reds games only when there were a dozen other games he had no hand in? Could it be because he felt he had an edge in his games because he was directly involved? So you're telling me he has $15,000 riding on each game yet does nothing out of the ordinary to increase his chance of winning? Does that really make sene to u?

Rose is a compulsive liar and a convict. He not only lied to the faces of his most loyal fans but also to the US government. His credibility is zero. If you want to keep backing a liar and a fraud then go ahead because he'll dissapoint you again.

[Bullajami]

Originally Posted by daggerkobe

Let me ask you a question. Why did Pete bet Reds games only when there were a dozen other games he had no hand in?

The Dowd Report clearly states that he bet on the Reds AND OTHER BASEBALL GAMES. He also bet on NFL, NBA, NCAAB and horses.

He was convicted of income tax evasion for underreporting his income by 4%. He served 5 months in Marion prison in Illinois. He is the only person the federal government has ever sought criminal penalties against for underreporting by less than 20%. Everyone else just pays a fine.

His agreeement with baseball is to a lifetime ban, but he is permitted to apply for reinstatement at any time after one year. Commissioner Giamatti orginally proposed a 12 year minimum ban, and then a 6 year minimum ban - both rejected by Rose because the case was weak. An Ohio judge had already ruled that Giamatti should be removed from the case because he was openly biased. A federal judge then claimed jurisdiction, but it was already public knowledge that the key witnesses were two drug dealers and a bookie all looking for reduced sentences, one of them forged documents claiming they were from Rose and later failed a polygraph. None of them ever claimed that Rose bet against the Reds. One of the evidentiary points against Rose was that the bookie's runner reported in his deposition that he had to run more winnings over to Rose when the Reds were hot.

Certainly a degenerate gambler might be expected to throw games whenever he could, but for all his faults Rose was a ballplayer first and a degenerate gambler second. He was also a huge loser as a gambler - down over $400K in '87-'88 according to Dowd. Something you would not expect from someone who could fix games.

Evidence that he did throw games might convince me. Arguments that he could have thrown games don't pass muster.

[AC1318]

Originally Posted by MJFtheGenius

anyone can manage a baseball team

If he was black no one here would support him to be allowed to manage

unreal

what does race have to do with it ??

many people here support bonds that are white even though he is now 3 times the size he was as a rookie "sure he didn't juice"

[AC1318]

I could care less what happens really
It doesn't put money in my pocket

but he should be in the hall of fame for his playing skills

[daggerkobe]

Originally Posted by Bullajami

The Dowd Report clearly states that he bet on the Reds AND OTHER BASEBALL GAMES. He also bet on NFL, NBA, NCAAB and horses.

He was convicted of income tax evasion for underreporting his income by 4%. He served 5 months in Marion prison in Illinois. He is the only person the federal government has ever sought criminal penalties against for underreporting by less than 20%. Everyone else just pays a fine.

His agreeement with baseball is to a lifetime ban, but he is permitted to apply for reinstatement at any time after one year. Commissioner Giamatti orginally proposed a 12 year minimum ban, and then a 6 year minimum ban - both rejected by Rose because the case was weak. An Ohio judge had already ruled that Giamatti should be removed from the case because he was openly biased. A federal judge then claimed jurisdiction, but it was already public knowledge that the key witnesses were two drug dealers and a bookie all looking for reduced sentences, one of them forged documents claiming they were from Rose and later failed a polygraph. None of them ever claimed that Rose bet against the Reds. One of the evidentiary points against Rose was that the bookie's runner reported in his deposition that he had to run more winnings over to Rose when the Reds were hot.

Certainly a degenerate gambler might be expected to throw games whenever he could, but for all his faults Rose was a ballplayer first and a degenerate gambler second. He was also a huge loser as a gambler - down over $400K in '87-'88 according to Dowd. Something you would not expect from someone who could fix games.

Evidence that he did throw games might convince me. Arguments that he could have thrown games don't pass muster.

Rose was not a baseball player first. He was a selfish prick who sullied and raped the game for his own personal gain. After all the game did for him he spat on it like it was nothing.

Rose was lucky he only got couple months of prison time for tax evasion. Wesley Snipes got 3 years and Richard Hatch got 51 months for the same thing. Its not celebrites that get jail time there are ordinary citizens getting g prison time every day. Tax evasion is a felony afterall.

So let's see rose gets barrelled in and starts betting on Reds games in an increasing manner up to 52 games in1987 and he didn't use his special circumstances to manipulate it in his favor????? Yeah right and I bet you think OJ didn't kill Ron and Nicole since evidence was all circumstantial.

Rose is a liar and a convict. I wouldn't believe a word he says if his tongue came notorized.

[Bullajami]

I hope you wager with more fact and less emotion.

[McBa1n]

F Rose. He was a childhood hero and ruined it all. I wonder how much debt he racked up over the years. If he apologized or came clean right away, he'd be back in baseball right now. As far as I'm concerned, he's dead to baseball and deserves to be.

The 'he didn't bet on the Reds to lose' thing is stupid. You're a bettor - think about what betting to win means. And also, did he bet them to win every night for the same amount? Cmon.

[Willie Bee]

Originally Posted by losturmarbles

the only thing that rose was guilty of was betting on baseball. not fixing, not throwing

See, I've always thought this was a rather naive defense of Rose's actions. On the surface, you're right, betting on one's self or team to win is not all that harmful. However, the games Rose didn't have a wager down on his Reds was an easy signal to others, especially those who were knowingly taking his wagers. If Rose isn't betting on the Reds tonight, what does that say? Does Pete know something about his own team, maybe he's going to give Barry Larkin the night off, maybe he's already decided that John Franco needs a day off from throwing?

Overall I agree with you, that if you don't let Rose in you need to also exclude the steroids abusers. The problem is that for some of the players, Mark McGwire for example, steroids weren't against the MLB rules while he was playing and gambling on baseball was. Why should McGwire be punished for breaking a rule that wasn't even a rule when he broke it? The two actions should be judged separately.

Welcome to the site by the way

[Bet Shooter]

Let's look at it from the other side of the table. What guy in his right mind would let Pete wager AGAINST his own team? Who would take that wager? NO ONE. It's too easy to effect the outcome. That is why he never bet against his own team. If he bet WITH his team, then what the hell is the difference? He would be out to win the game whether he had money on it or not! While betting WITH his team though, it looks like he only had faith in certain pitchers on his team and those were the games he would wager on. That doesn't make him any different from anyone here. Everyday we all take risks on certain pitchers, but not other pitchers!

As far as the morality of wagering on sports, he was wrong. Once he decided to wager on sports he lost his integrity. There is no gray area with a persons integrity. Someone in his position would have to go above and beyond what the rest of us would have to do to maintain integrity in the eyes of our peers. That is where he failed.
If he had a problem with gambling, then he would have needed to fix it to maintain his integrity. Or don't put yourself in the position in the first palce and retire from Baseball. There is reason why a man like Art Manteris doesn't wager on sports. It gives the impression of things not being on the level. Instead of putting that thought in peoples minds and putting himself in postion for others to question his integrity, he just doesn't wager at all.

My two cents.

[daggerkobe]

He had runners betting for him. He could bet against his own grandma and no one would know.

[daggerkobe]

Almost always, records indicate, he bet on the Reds. Dowd suspected that Rose might have bet against his own team, as well, though his report does not state that conclusion. In 1999, Dowd told CNN/Sports Illustrated that he had two pieces of evidence -- an interview and a document -- that indicate that Rose had indeed bet on his team to lose. However, Dowd's mandate from then-commissioner Bart Giamatti was that no charge would be made in the official report that could not be backed up by three different sources.

"Almost always he bet on the Reds, but some nights he wouldn't because he didn't like the pitcher," Vincent says. "He didn't like Mario Soto and some nights he wouldn't bet when Soto was pitching. So then the bookie knows, 'Well, Rose is not betting tonight.' You can imagine how quickly that traveled."

Records presented in the Dowd Report reveal he bet on a handful of games every day. And often did well.

"We think he made money betting on baseball," Vincent says. "And people are stupid. They say, 'Why do you care if he bet on his own team?' Well, that is the point, you care because that night when he is betting he brings in his best relief pitcher. The next night when he isn't betting he can bring in anybody. The game is corrupted."

[Thor4140]

Originally Posted by crazyl

Agree, it is a shame. Especially with as scummy and tainted as the MLB is now.

Forget about this shit. I would stake my life on it that Pete will never be back. The problem here is all these league have refs, certain players, and certain coaches that fix games daily. Pete went behind the leagues back and this is the ultimate sin. In these phony leagues this would be considered a serial killer in real life. You got guys accused of rape, involved in killings, steriods, DUI's, selling drugs, smacking the shit out of woman etc.. and all being allowed to comeback and play. Gambling on the other hand is a no no unless of course you fix games for the league and the books best interest to scam money off the betting public. Then its okay. People who think Donaghy was the only one doing this are fooling themselves. This is a billion dollar industry and where there are huge sums of money you will always find some sort of corruption.

[20Four7]

If they allow all those Juice infected records to stand Pete should be in the Hall of Fame.

back into baseball....... i'm not so sure but it wouldn't kill me to see it.