[ritehook]

This story appeared in the online magazine, Salon.

It is a big story, much more so than the weak press it has so far gotten. NY Times had something on it, not too much else.
By Gary Kamiya

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Read more: Gary Kamiya, Opinion


April 29, 2008 | For years, liberal American Jews who have chafed under the taboo against criticizing Israel have dreamed of starting a political organization that would speak for them. Now, with the launch of J Street, that dream has become a reality.

Jeremy Ben-Ami, the group's founder, says that the incident that drove him over the edge took place when he was working as policy director for Howard Dean's 2004 presidential campaign. Dean said the U.S. should take an "evenhanded" approach to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian crisis, Ben-Ami recalled. He was immediately, and predictably, savaged as anti-Israeli and a coddler of terrorists. "All hell broke loose," Ben-Ami said. "And this from a man who's married to a Jewish woman, who's raising kids in the Jewish faith, and is extremely pro-Israel in everything he'd ever said and done. But to use that one word, and then to have that cascade into a torrent, was just amazing to me. And it's certainly been repeated and magnified with the attacks on Obama and some of his aides, some of them crossing any line that any of us should have about civil discourse."

There are few political relationships more fraught than that between American Jews and Israel. As the national emblem of Jewish identity, Israel is seen by many Jews as sacrosanct. Some Jews passionately identify with Israel and its policies and angrily reject any criticism of it, often attacking critics as anti-Semites or self-hating Jews. But even those Jews who privately harbor misgivings about Israel's policies often keep their opinions to themselves because the subject is simply too charged. Anyone, Jewish or not, who dares to say or write anything critical about Israel quickly learns that they have poked a hornet's nest.

What makes the subject especially sensitive -- and keeps many people, including most journalists, from going anywhere near it -- is that, far more than any other issue, it splits the progressive and intellectual community. Speaking more plainly, it divides one's friends and colleagues -- sometimes even one's family. Jews have always played a prominent role in America's progressive and intellectual circles. And if you have a connection to those circles and you criticize Israel, you are almost certain to deeply offend or anger someone whom you respect, like, and have many things in common with. Small wonder that, as former Israeli official Daniel Levy told me, most people, Jews and non-Jews alike, "decide to sit this one out. It's more of a headache than it's worth."

The taboo isn't only enforced by such personal matters, of course. It's also aggressively enforced by powerful Jewish lobbies like AIPAC, mainstream Jewish groups and leaders like Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, who claim to speak on behalf of all Jews. Congress, intimidated by the moral authority (or moral blackmail) and political clout wielded by these organizations and afraid of offending Jewish donors who are a major force in Democratic fundraising, invariably falls into line. The fact that Congress has staked out a position on Israel to the right of the Bush administration's pretty much says it all. The default right-wing position on Israel is holy writ in American politics, and explains why Hillary Clinton can pander to the right-wing pro-Israel lobby by casually threatening to "totally obliterate" Iran -- vaporize 70 million men, women and children who have nothing to do with their leaders' anti-Israeli posturings -- without paying any political price for such irresponsible statements.


Nothing is more urgently needed in our political discourse than for the taboo against speaking forthrightly about Israel to be overthrown. After all, notwithstanding its profound connection to some American Jews and its (partly justified) status as a beloved icon with whom we have a "special relationship," Israel is not the 51st state -- it is a foreign country, and one smack-dab in the center of the Middle East, a region in which we have some considerable national interest. The enforced silence about Israel has prevented us from thinking clearly about the Middle East, and helped enable both the disastrous war we are now fighting in Iraq and a possible future one against Iran.

But because of the highly sensitive nature of the subject, American Jews must lead the way.

Which is why the birth of J Street, whose goal Ben-Ami says is "to redefine what it means to be pro-Israel," is cause for unalloyed celebration. "Over the course of a quarter century of doing American politics, I've seen the way in which the Israel issue plays out," Ben-Ami said in a phone interview from J Street's Washington, D.C., office. "And it greatly disturbs me and it greatly disturbs a very large number of progressive American Jews, who believe very strongly in Israel but feel that the way in which the American Jewish community's voice has been expressed on these issues doesn't reflect our values or opinions. Only the voices of the far right have been heard. They've really hijacked the debate when it comes to Israel."

Next page: Why are progressive Jews like Barney Frank liberal on everything except Israel?

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Read all letters on this article (129)

[Kerfuffle]

Got a real fukkin fixation, don't you ritefuk?

[ritehook]

This is the first page of the story.

Any wishing to read the full piece can google the author's name, or go to Salon.

The big question for J Street is whether they can ever hope to match AIPAC in money, to pay the Washington whores to see things their way.

This story has two aspects. One is that Jewish tradition has tended to be liberal for centuries. Except, in th last half-century or so, on the matter of Israel. Then, we have seen the emergence of militaristic hawks.

Second, Jews are a very intelligent people, who well know their history.

So potent has The Lobby become in America (Pat Buchanan calls Congress, "Israel-Occupied Territory") that even the dullest tack in the box are startng to perceive that the voices that were most vocal in calling for he invasion of Iraq (and now for war on Iran), were those of Jewish nationalists masquering as good Americans (and often useing uselful idiot frontmen like Cheney and Rumsfeld).

Other peoples who at one time welcomed the persecuted Jews into their midst, later turned against them. England expelled them (they were mentioned negatively in the founding document of democracy, the Magna Carta) an Spain also booted them the same year that Columbus set sail to the New World.

With so much say in Congress and so much influence in the media, many American Jews have become nervous, and want to tone it down. Understandably so.

I wish J Street very good luck. They have their work cut out for them, trying to become an effective counterweight to AIPAC.

[ritehook]

To francis and kerfuffle:

The story appeared in Salon. A very respected online publication. Owned, I think, by Microsoft. Take your complaint to Mr Gates. And take a hatchet to his product that you're using.

I've discussed a number of topics on this forum. Interesting that only this one generates such passion. Your nationalism is showing.

Supressors of speech are nothing new in America. I'm not intimidated. (Tho most Americans still are, bound in golden chians - chains now melting a tad with hard economic times.)

Now go make out a big check to AIPAC.

[ritehook]

Jeremy Ben-Ami, the author of the article that has so excited the neocon posters here, has deep roots in Israel.

His ancestors immigrated there in the 19th century. They were among the founders of the modern city of Tel Aviv.

His father raised funds for Irgun, during the war to establish the state.

He himself has a strong attachement to Israel. He just penned another article in the well-known Jewish newspaper, The Daily Forward.

But, according the haters, he should not be allowed to speak. Nor I. Nor any who disagree with their fascistis mind-set.

[ritehook]

Burp.

Just to rattle the chains of the Thought Police.

[2Pac]

fukkin jews

[arie1985]

fukkin jews

Fuk you, speak for yourself fatass

[ritehook]

fukkin jews

Disagree.

Rational debate is a positive, something the Lobby does not want. They have bitterly attacked the two rational scholars who last year published a ground-breaking study of the influence of the pro-Israel groups in the U.S. (And btw, both those scholars are, I think, ethnic Jews.)

Hatred isn't necessary. But that, unfortunately, is what history teaches us it well devolve into, if AIPAC etc is not soon, and effectively, challenged.

Already many in the upper ranks of the military, both active and retired, are angry at the Lobby for hijacking the Pentagon for their own aims. Ditto for a number of former CIA and other intelligence specialists. (And just watch the turd hit the fan if Bush pardons American/Jewish superspy for Israel, Jonathan Pollard, next January. One day before retiring to the ranch.)

The movement now begun by Jeremy Ben Ami is long overdue.
American Jews, in the mass, must disassociate themselves from the warhawking Zionist Lobby.

Many intelligent Israelis agree. The Lobby treats America like we were the enemy in World War II, rather than their saviors.

[Kerfuffle]

This is a sports/gambling forum, and sometimes other topics are discussed.

There are over 200 countries in the world to talk about.

There's about 200,000,000 different topics to talk about.

Why do you keep bringing up this topic as if everything in the world would be right if only the world operated the way the ritefuher wanted it. And why the fuk do you keep doing it at a sports/gambling forum?

The mideast aid the U.S. grants is split roughly 60%/ 40% between Israel and Egypt.

When the fuk are you going to talk about the Egyptian lobby, if the mideast is so fukking important to you? If you must talk about it fairly, then start 4 threads about Egyptian aid for every 6 you start about Israel, then we'll know you're a fair and balanced...whatever the hell you are.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/poli...oreign-aid.htm

[jjgold]

Israel Is The Cause Of All Wars Period

911 Happened Because Of Usa Support Of Israel

The Iraq Disaster Is Because Of Israel

We Need To Stop Supporting Them And Who Cares Of Muslims Take Them Over

[ritehook]

This is a sports/gambling forum, and sometimes other topics are discussed.

There are over 200 countries in the world to talk about.

There's about 200,000,000 different topics to talk about.

Why do you keep bringing up this topic as if everything in the world would be right if only the world operated the way the ritefuher wanted it. And why the fuk do you keep doing it at a sports/gambling forum?

The mideast aid the U.S. grants is split roughly 60%/ 40% between Israel and Egypt.

When the fuk are you going to talk about the Egyptian lobby, if the mideast is so fukking important to you? If you must talk about it fairly, then start 4 threads about Egyptian aid for every 6 you start about Israel, then we'll know you're a fair and balanced...whatever the hell you are.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/poli...oreign-aid.htm

I've posted on sports, handicapping (did one for both the bowls and March Madness), horses, etc. I once worked in sports promotion.

First of all, like many others who post on political topics, I usually will take a current news story to comment on. Natch, this one did not appear on CNN, CBS, FOX, MSNBC etc, but it did get a notice in the NY Times and several newsweeklies.

IE, it was news. To me, as the story is not, as the reporter for Salon noted, much talked about. That does not make it less important. And, the Mideast is, right now, a particulrly hot issue. (Tho most of my polit posts have recently been on the presidential primaries and election. You are just sensitive and radar-attuned to this particular topic.)

I don't believe in slinging insults, and you'll rarely find me doing so. If ever. Tho I will reply to attacks.

Egypt, it is true, is the second largest recipient of American aid - two billion bucks a year, I think, most of which likely goes into the pocket of corrupt officials there.

But --- why is Egypt the second biggest recipient of US foreign aid? I believe I know the answer.

If any of the other five boardies who are reading this dense, serious thread (as NBA games are on) know, post now. First one to answer correctly gets a cruise to the beautiful Gaza Strip and a suite at the Hamas Hilton there. And a free lap dance at the Bombs Away Gents Club, from the lovely lady known as The Gaza Stripper.

[ritehook]

Israel Is The Cause Of All Wars Period

911 Happened Because Of Usa Support Of Israel

The Iraq Disaster Is Because Of Israel

We Need To Stop Supporting Them And Who Cares Of Muslims Take Them Over

JJ is an American Jew, and while he expresses his views more - uh - colorfully than most would, his opinions on this topic are not all that unusual in the US Jewish communityl

Many here resent the heavy-handedness of The Lobby. Long-term, they feel, it's not good for Jews. Their attitude is, who in hell are these ultra-nationalists, these "Israeli Uber Alles" folk to speak for them.

Many groups, American Council for Judaism, Tikkum, a few think tanks, some ultra-orthodox groups, oppose Israel's bold claims. Others are totally repelled at the Lobby and the neocons (mainly Jewish, tho their are goy frontmen, like the childminded GW Bush) making pacts with koo koo groups in the Bible Belt, like the Rev Hagee's fanatics.

"Come, let us reason together." And we can, with dialog, sort out the best solution to this thorny problem. My own view is that Ben-Ami's group is a very good, tho belated, beginning.

[BuddyBear]

I am not sure if JJ is an American Jew...i doubt he is very religious anyway.

Regardless, the news story article is very important. The reality is that the Congress is corrupted and indentured to Israeli interests. The Congress is very very weak right now and is basically controlled by the Israel lobby. Most members of Congress dislike Israel, I'd put it at roughly 60-70% of Congress is infurated with Israel at any given moment, but they continue the ongoing charade of this "special relationship" simply because the Israel lobby 1) funds their re-election campaigns and 2) if they don't, they'll fund their challenger's campaign. Make no mistake about it folks, the Israel lobby is fierce and powerful and will stop at nothing to get thier legislation passed even if that legislation is determinetal to the U.S. foregin policy goals. The Israeli lobby uses intimidation tactics and blood money to coerce members of Congress to vote for their legislation and members of the corporate news media to withhold criticism. The Israel lobby is largely responsible for the disaster in Iraq right now. The blood of thousands of American soldiers is the result of heavy lobbying from Israel and the massive propoaganda campaign that was used to build the case for the illegal war and occupation of Iraq. Take a look around you fellows, no country in the world right now wants the U.S. to go to war with Iran other than Israel...not even the American public wants it and we all know how easily duped the American public is.

The irony or really the sad thing is that the Israel lobby does not do a very good job of reprsenting who they intend to speak for. In fact, many policies that AIPAC, ADL, WJC, etc... promote and endorse run counter to public opinion among the American Jewish community. In fact, the Jewish community as a whole is relatively liberal and has expressed a strong desire to end the violence in Israel/Palestine as well as strong opposition to the Iraq war from the get go. Moroever, a sizeable number of Jews in America have no affiliation whatsoever to Israel. This is the ultimate irony since they push for policies that are so counter to the people they intend to represent.

A good introduction to start reading about all this and more is The Israel Lobby written by two esteemed professors. One from Harvard and the other from the University of Chicago. The book was met with great enthusiasm and was very well received everywhere outside the U.S. Of course, among the educated elite and anyone with a brain and or conscience it was found to be a fascinating read.

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U...9944298&sr=8-1


This new group has a lot of work to do IMO, but the foundation is there. The majority of people not just in the Jewish community but in the general U.S. population support their agenda for peace and realistic foreign policy. Unfortunately they don't have the resources or money yet to blackmail Congress like the AIPAC's of the world do. It will take time, but it's a start.....

[Richkas]

If you dont celebrate Christmas, get the phuck out of the USA, but leave your women.

[ritehook]

I am not sure if JJ is an American Jew...i doubt he is very religious anyway.

Regardless, the news story article is very important. The reality is that the Congress is corrupted and indentured to Israeli interests. The Congress is very very weak right now and is basically controlled by the Israel lobby. Most members of Congress dislike Israel, I'd put it at roughly 60-70% of Congress is infurated with Israel at any given moment, but they continue the ongoing charade of this "special relationship" simply because the Israel lobby 1) funds their re-election campaigns and 2) if they don't, they'll fund their challenger's campaign. Make no mistake about it folks, the Israel lobby is fierce and powerful and will stop at nothing to get thier legislation passed even if that legislation is determinetal to the U.S. foregin policy goals. The Israeli lobby uses intimidation tactics and blood money to coerce members of Congress to vote for their legislation and members of the corporate news media to withhold criticism. The Israel lobby is largely responsible for the disaster in Iraq right now. The blood of thousands of American soldiers is the result of heavy lobbying from Israel and the massive propoaganda campaign that was used to build the case for the illegal war and occupation of Iraq. Take a look around you fellows, no country in the world right now wants the U.S. to go to war with Iran other than Israel...not even the American public wants it and we all know how easily duped the American public is.

The irony or really the sad thing is that the Israel lobby does not do a very good job of reprsenting who they intend to speak for. In fact, many policies that AIPAC, ADL, WJC, etc... promote and endorse run counter to public opinion among the American Jewish community. In fact, the Jewish community as a whole is relatively liberal and has expressed a strong desire to end the violence in Israel/Palestine as well as strong opposition to the Iraq war from the get go. Moroever, a sizeable number of Jews in America have no affiliation whatsoever to Israel. This is the ultimate irony since they push for policies that are so counter to the people they intend to represent.

A good introduction to start reading about all this and more is The Israel Lobby written by two esteemed professors. One from Harvard and the other from the University of Chicago. The book was met with great enthusiasm and was very well received everywhere outside the U.S. Of course, among the educated elite and anyone with a brain and or conscience it was found to be a fascinating read.

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U...9944298&sr=8-1


This new group has a lot of work to do IMO, but the foundation is there. The majority of people not just in the Jewish community but in the general U.S. population support their agenda for peace and realistic foreign policy. Unfortunately they don't have the resources or money yet to blackmail Congress like the AIPAC's of the world do. It will take time, but it's a start.....

Solid post. I basically agree with all of it.

I thought it was an important story, tho apparently not reported in all the media (surprise!!).

The Lobby isn't doing US Jews any favors with their heavy-handed tactics. These topics, by the way, are openly discussed in the Israeli media (the Israelis aren't going to let some fascist-minded lobby shut them up) and many are opposed to its activity, or even appalled at its bizarre allies - like the heretical millenianalist, Rev Hagee.

It's cynical as hell. Love to see the Ben-Ami group get even one cowardly lion of a national legislator standing up for US interests - ie, real peace and even-handedness in the Mideast.
But I fear the neocons will have their way, and we will be attacking Iran within 4 months.

[ritehook]

I am not sure if JJ is an American Jew...i doubt he is very religious anyway.

Yeah, BB, I think JJ is, ethnically, a Jew. Though I would seriously doubt he goes to temple, even on high holy days. Esp if there's a game scheduled that he's down on. Or has a black hooker waiting for him.

Religious affiliation is not required. "Jewishness" is more a kind of peoplehood than solely a religion. I've known militants atheists who nonetheless defined themselves as Jews.

Many US Jews are, I think, starting to see the danger of taking a prominent pro-Israel role. Like the neocons who lied us into this fukkin' disaster in Iraq.

Newton's Third Law of Motion will likely kick in someday - unless folks like Ben-Ami are able to establish some kind of balance. But, can he raise the heavy bucks he'll need to be even a small counterweight?

[ritehook]

This is Jeremy Ben-Ami's article in the Jewish Daily Forward.


http://www.forward.com/articles/13154/

[BuddyBear]

I am a little bit busy tonight with some work, I'll have a few observations and insights on this critical topic later on this week. It's important we keep addressing these issues in a constructive fashion.

[Kerfuffle]

The two of you, ritehook and buddybear, remind me of 4 year old kids whose parents are trying to put them to bed, but they just can't fall asleep because they're sure there's a monster in the closet, or under the bed, or waiting to come in the window, the jewish lobby monster.

Mommy daddy, I can't go to sleep, the jewish lobby monster is going to get me!!!


In this article you can find the case for there being the strongest possible jewish lobby there can be.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/26/news/iran.php

[Kerfuffle]

To the moderators who are reading here:


I'd like to request that threads relating to Jews, Israel, or Israel lobby be moved to the private section, or remain in the Politics section of the forum, without making it to the Player's talk area.

These threads are inciteful (causing incite - NOT insightful!)

I only have to ask you to read 2pac post.

2pac may be anti-semitic, or anti-Israel or whatever. But he is at the SBR forum first and foremost to talk about gambling, not to talk about jews.

But given the opportunity, the inciting tone of ritehooks threads, gives him (2pac) the outlet needed to share his racist views. This is a thread and a topic that is inciteful, not insightful.

There was no provokation of any kind by pro-jews or pro-Israel backers to cause ritehook to yet another version of this issue.

It is NOT a thread meant to stir debate. It is ritehook, and his chief assistant buddybear's way of continuing to set their own racist agenda here at SBR.

I do not want to respond to these threads. But if they are not responded to, the ritehook/buddybear warped view of the world is the only one that will be presented here. If I feel I must respond- then there is something wrong with this thread being here.

Once again, I ask to keep these threads away from the Player's talk section. And I urge anyone else at the forum who is tired of seeing these jewish/Israel/Israel lobby isues on the front of the player's talk section to urge the moderators to put this crap somewhere else.

[ritehook]

Very typical reaction of jack-booted speech suppressors.

Kerfluffle wants to ban views that he beleives "incites." They certainly incite him, as he clearly shares the concept of AIPAC that this is a topic verboten to discuss openly.

Those on this board do something the US government says is illegal. Clearly, the folks here feel they can make their own minds up on the issue of gambling. They don't need or want some higher authority telling them what to do.

There are many non-gambling posts on this forum, covering all sorts of topics. Many are "politically incorrect."

Short of someone calling specifially for murder or mayhem, I think the members here can decide what they want to read, without Thought Policemen like kerfluffle directing them like a stern traffic cop.

We can navigate the site on our own, Herr Kerfluffle. But thanks anyway for your great concern for our welfare.

[Kerfuffle]

I'm going to be on your ass every inch of the way you racist snot.

[noyb]

It is NOT a thread meant to stir debate. It is ritehook, and his chief assistant buddybear's way of continuing to set their own racist agenda here at SBR.

i thought i'd read the posts of both posters in this thread quite well, but apparently i didn't since i didn't read anything racist anywhere in their posts, regardless of what i think about the whole israeli-topic.
why does this thread not stir debate? personally i see no reason why it should be moved.

[ritehook]

The site referenced by Ker the Super Kop repeats the old limburger about the president of Iran calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

Wow! That's heavy stuff! Incendiary. Should get a ton of US Zionists to write some huge checks to AIPAC.

One little problem: the Iranian president, dickhead tho he otherwise may be, never said any such thing.

Juan Cole, a professor at the University of Michigan, is a staunch opponent of the Iranian regime. Some of his associates in Iran, he says, have over the years been persecuted and oppressed by the ayotullahs.

But, he is an honest academic, who reacts negatively to big public lies. And this quote by the prez of Iran, he says, is a fabrication.

Cole is expert in Farsi, the language of Iran, and very knowledgeable about that country and area.

The speech, quoting the founder of the Iranian Islamic Republic, Khomeini, said that the oppressive Zionist government in that area "will disappear from the pages of history." Sort of like what US politicians said about the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

It never implied violence. Cole thinks the phrase comes from an old Iranian poem.

The Lobby and its agents will do or say anything to get its American dupes to do their dirty work.

Here is the link for Juan Cole's own words on the topic.

http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/hitc...-hitchens.html

[ritehook]

I'm going to be on your ass every inch of the way you racist snot.

The unthinking racist, sir, is in the mirror.

Do you hate and despise Arabs, and practitioners of Islam? Do you wish genocide for them? And do you have such contempt for Americans that you wish us to die for a country not our own?

I've seen posts on some boards from Zionist crazies advocating genocide against all followers of Islam.

The reasoning behind their call for mass murder is that Israel is in a demographic squeeze, being outbred by its Palestinian neighbors.

The two-state solution is advocated by those who feel that the Jewish ethnicity in Israel will be overwhelmed demographically by the high Palestinian birthrate, within and outside its borders.

So there are smart people in Israel who desperately want the "two-state" solution, to avoid being swamped. But there is a noisy minority of fanatics there also who believe that some ancient volcano god (Yahweh) "gave this land to us." (A land that includes all of Palestine, much of Syria, Jordan, parts of Iraq etc)

Uh-huh. Is this ancient religious quarrel worth the life of a single American. The Lobby thinks so. Ker the Kop thinks so.

I don't. But I always welcome enlightened debate.

[ritehook]

BTW, Ker, could you provide us your own pro-Isreal credentials.

The founder of the anti-AIPAC lobby, J Street, Jeremy Ben-Ami, had supplied his own very strong ties to Israel, in the Jewish Daily Forward article that I linked. (His grandparents founded the city of Tel Aviv, for instance.)

Did your ancestors, Ker, begin even one little kibbutz there? Were they ever even there? Were you? A true patriot for Israel (who extends dual citizenship to all who have a Jewish mother - it's all in the blood, folks) shoud be there in this coming hour of crisis, face to face with those crazy Iranians.

[Kerfuffle]

Yuu, xxxxx, are the initiator and instigator here.

You are the one stirring up the pot. Remember that xxxxx.

As for Juan Cole, what a surprise he would be doing some song and dance routine before he gets a fatwa placed on him like Salman Rushdie. I'll take my news from the Internation Herald Tribune, thanks.

What is your fukking point of all this xxxx?

You want jews in America to go to the polls wearing yellow stars placed on their clothes?

You want jewish votes to count as half votes? No votes at all?

What the fukk are you striving for here other than your own personal racist agenda, you and the Goebbels in training buddybear?

What the fukk do you want from American jews, xxxxx?


What .....What.... What?


Shame on you Bill Dozer and you other puss mods for leaving this drivel up from the riteprick.

[Thor4140]

To the moderators who are reading here:


I'd like to request that threads relating to Jews, Israel, or Israel lobby be moved to the private section, or remain in the Politics section of the forum, without making it to the Player's talk area.

These threads are inciteful (causing incite - NOT insightful!)

I only have to ask you to read 2pac post.

2pac may be anti-semitic, or anti-Israel or whatever. But he is at the SBR forum first and foremost to talk about gambling, not to talk about jews.

But given the opportunity, the inciting tone of ritehooks threads, gives him (2pac) the outlet needed to share his racist views. This is a thread and a topic that is inciteful, not insightful.

There was no provokation of any kind by pro-jews or pro-Israel backers to cause ritehook to yet another version of this issue.

It is NOT a thread meant to stir debate. It is ritehook, and his chief assistant buddybear's way of continuing to set their own racist agenda here at SBR.

I do not want to respond to these threads. But if they are not responded to, the ritehook/buddybear warped view of the world is the only one that will be presented here. If I feel I must respond- then there is something wrong with this thread being here.

Once again, I ask to keep these threads away from the Player's talk section. And I urge anyone else at the forum who is tired of seeing these jewish/Israel/Israel lobby isues on the front of the player's talk section to urge the moderators to put this crap somewhere else.

There is a real sickening small part of the Jewish society who needs to be very controlling. You sound just like one of those type of people i am talking about. Since you have no power to keep these two guys quiet you now are gonna cry like a bitch to have them gagged. Every site i go there are a handful of guys like you. Usually you throw out the Anti Semi line. One of the great things about the internet is that you can find the guys who are not easily conned by our phony media and enjoy their writings. Unfortunately there are a lot of Fox News watchers on these type of sites that couldn't reconize that they are being played a fool even if Fox told them. Give it a break bro.

[Kerfuffle]

Thor, it's cool, you can dislike jews as much as you want, you can hate Israel as much as you want, you can be as blunt as 2pac and come here and say fukkin jews - whatever.

But what the fukk is up with ritefukk that he has to start threads to instigate, and incite and lead on - what the fuk is this creatures fukking agenda?

[Thor4140]

Thor, it's cool, you can dislike jews as much as you want, you can hate Israel as much as you want, you can be as blunt as 2pac and come here and say fukkin jews - whatever.

But what the fukk is up with ritefukk that he has to start threads to instigate, and incite and lead on - what the fuk is this creatures fukking agenda?

Their you go again dickbreath. Where did i say i dislike Jews? Where did i say i hated Israel? He isn't here to incite. That is your controlling opinion because you want him gagged. He said exactly what i have been saying for years. The Jewish people want peace. The American public wants peace. Unfortunately our rotten gov't as well as Israels doesn't.
Go watch some BBC instead of our phony press and learn the other side. Im sure a controlling guy like you wants to do no such thing. You are a controlling shill who's mind can be shape like Playdo.

[Thor4140]

The Israelis are overwhelmingly in favor of a two state solution, and this has been the stated policy of their Government for 15 years. The US Government also backs a two-state solution, and every president from Gerald Ford to George W. Bush has pressured Israel to make concessions to advance this goal. But every time the Israelis do anything to advance the process, the thanks they get is more shelling into their cities, more terrorism against their citizens, and more venomous attacks from people like you when they try to defend themselves.

The problem isn't that the US is not even-handed. We support a Jewish state (in which Arabs can choose either to leave or to live side-by-side with Jews) and an Arab state (in which all Jews would be expelled or exterminated). If anything, our policy is biased toward the PALESTINIANS. No, the problem is that as a starting point we stand firmly behind the right of the Israelis to have a secure state, and this is unacceptable to the Arabs, who expect us to lean even more heavily toward them and leave the Israelis completely isolated.

Maybe, as you say, you don't hate Jews or Israel. But if that's the case, it's certainly not those other folks whose minds have been "shaped like playdo".

Get off their land okay. How is occupying working for us? You occupy someones land you are gonna get screwed with. If the people in Iraq came over here and laid down the laws and we had to go along with them we would be suicide bombing. Israel gov't offered a plan to Arafat and all i heard from our press was how could have Arafat turned it down. Listening to our press you would have thought it was the greatest deal in the world. When i heard the other side the deal consist of Isreal giving back the land but owning the streets. Who the hell would take a deal like that? Nothing like this was talked about by our corporate bought press. Keep on buying the bullshit our press keeps on shoveling. Its entertaining TV unfortunately its very misleading. Some can see a con job a mile away. Some have trouble seeing one if it bit them in the face. We both want peace but our Gov't don't.

[BuddyBear]

This thread is starting to get out of control. Let's not confuse Jews with Israel. Just like we wouldn't want to confuse "Americans' with "George W. Bush." When we are talking about "Israel" we are referring to a foregin government and their policies and relationship with other states. We should refrain from talking about Jews in any derogatory or inciteful manner as that is inherently anti-semitic and should be reserved for Klan meetings. We can talk about the relationship of American Jewry with Israel and lobbying efforts and what not, but let's avoid making any sort of hurtful comment (i.e. 2pac). Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation being spread on here (i.e. Kerfuffle and coldhardfacts).

I am a little busy right now but I will make some more important insights and observations later on this week on this very subject. Let's not put this thread away just yet. It's important we continue to confront these isseus and focus our energies on educating one another on this critical topic. I know this can be a difficult topic to talk about but I admire the patience and courtesy that posters are showing on here (i.e. Thor4140).

Will be back later....