[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Last things first. Barring a miracle, the series is over. Suns didn't do the little things down the stretch. This was their game, and they managed not to win it.

We agree about the nature of the Spurs. Compare them to inspiring champions like the Showtime Lakers and Jordan Bulls. I just call them what they are. Champions of cheating. But I can understand that a season ticket holder would see them in a more positive light; maybe champions of bending the rules in their favor. They have poisoned the game of basketball to the point where it will never be the same. As you say, other teams have to follow suit. I feel sorry for Duncan, because he's an icon who deserves a much better legacy.

I'll follow suit... Last things first.

If you think the Spurs "cheat", then you have to think that Duncan is their ringleader. As a season ticket holder, I can say that I've watched this Spurs team morph as Duncan has aged. They know what they can get away with, and much like politics, they take advantage of the so-called "dirty" tactics. Anything to give the team an edge, ya know? I actually hate Manu's flops. When we play hoops (playground) we have one guy that consistently calls tick-tack fouls when his team is on the brink of losing. Dude called traveling on me on game point, saying that I picked up both feet on a "catch-pumpfake-pass" sequence. On the other hand, unless I get literally hacked while shooting, to the point that either pain is felt or a "slap" is heard, then I'm not calling it. (I'll get even but I won't call the foul). The Spurs strike me as a hyper-competitive group that would resort to calling offensive fouls, carrying/palming, 3-second calls in playground games... Anything to give them an edge. Looking back though, the same things that drive people nuts about the Spurs were the same things, to a certain degree, that has bugged people about the Championship "dynasties" of late: MJ-Bulls, the Bad Boys, the Celtics with McHale, Parrish, Bird, Ainge (show me a person that says that Celts team played fair and I'll show you a filthy f^ckin' liar)...

[Dark Horse]

Pop is the inspiration behind the whole Spurs culture. Look at how Kurt Thomas has suddenly changed. Took how long?

Then think back to last year. Suns had beaten Spurs on their own court. Few seconds left to play. Horry comes off the bench and sends Nash flying into the boards. Not a coincidence. An obvious provocation. And it worked! Was that Horry's sudden flash of genius?

Bowen with his feet quickly shuffling underneath the jump shooter. Bowen who knees Nash in the groin. Ginobili, who flies all over the place in quest for turnovers and fouls. I mean, except for Duncan, who truly is great, it's a joke.

I think in many cases Pop is the direct inspiration ('do whatever it takes'). But if not, if it is all coincidence that he has all these cheating players, then surely he didn't say anything to make them play up to another standard...

[ryanXL977]

thats not cheating
just bad sportsmanship

[babaoriley]

Oh, and DH, if the Suns take game 2, then you guys are in the driver's seat. But yeah, that was about as important of a game 1 as I can remember.

Also, does anyone really think the NBA has some sort of desire to see the Spurs move on in this series??? The League brass is jonesing over the possibility of Lakers-Suns... Spurs would be worst case scenario (besides maybe Houston and Utah).

[Dark Horse]

I think Pop is too smart for D'Antoni. If the Suns were up by 20 pts at halftime of game #7 he'd find a way to poison the gatorade.

BTW, it's not Duncan. Duncan doesn't cheat. He doesn't need to.

[ryanXL977]

cheating is the wrong word

[Dark Horse]

Well, there was a time when that was called cheating. Most people wouldn't question that. But maybe the generation that grew up with it has a different definition.

I grew up like Baba. To fake a foul against you was unthinkable. But we would foul extremely hard. It was war. Not a ballet with players toppling over at the slightest contact.

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

He started out as assistant coach at West Point. That would, at that time, just about have been the US capital of honorable conduct.

Point is that champions don't need to cheat. Jordan didn't. Magic or Bird didn't. We remember them for the great times they gave us. And for the standard of excellence they set. Only Spurs fans will remember the Spurs like that.

DH, I'm giving you a pass on this statement. I believe your bitterness/anger is making you delusional. Jordan is by far my 2nd favorite athlete of all time (1st is Dale Murphy) so I tend to be on his side most of the time, but the very thing I love about MJ was his, um, resourcefulness. Remember, here's a guy whose defining shot was slightly aided by a little push-off on Russell. A guy who, if I were playing poker with him, would never be allowed to deal for fear he'd set the deck... A guy who once made a wager with a couple fellow Bulls players that his bag would be the first off the conveyor belt at the airport (a seemingly innocuous wager until you factor in the deal he made with the baggage handler that specified MJ's bag would come out first)... And don't even get me started on Bird. That Celtics team was crooked even by Nixon terms... And yet, those are the very things that make me revere MJ and Bird... As for Magic, he played by the rules I suppose, but in today's world, if you have an edge you take it. I hate that the NBA is turning into a sissified version of itself, but again, until the rules are either changed or enforced properly, they'd be absolute fools not to take advantage of the edge they have. (I think I just broke the record for most times using the word "edge" in a single post that didn't have a thing to do with theory).

[ryanXL977]

agreed

[babaoriley]

And with all that said, I am actually disappointed that the Spurs have to resort to tactics such as these, though I truly think they thrive on getting into opponents' heads. If it's by flopping, throwing down a hard foul, etc. then so be it. As a paying customer, I want to see wins, and while I'd prefer to see a completely benign game from a "dirty" point of view, I'm also looking for people to do the little things (which are, in many cases, perfect examples of so-called dirty play).

I don't want this series to be decided by the zebras, that's for sure... Something tells me that the Suns catch a very nice home-court advantage in games 3-4 courtesy of the men in stripes... And, if they can manage to lower themselves to the level of the Spurs and manage to pull a role-reversal, then kudos to them...

[Dark Horse]

We have the same problem with the NBA. Worded slightly differently. I don't want a squeaky clean game at all. I'm tired of average players with a few dirty tricks up their sleeves stealing the thunder from the great players.

Do you think the Spurs would have won those titles without flopping their way to them?

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

We have the same problem with the NBA. Worded slightly differently. I don't want a squeaky clean game at all. I'm tired of average players with a few dirty tricks up their sleeves stealing the thunder from the great players.

Do you think the Spurs would have won those titles without flopping their way to them?

Titles 1 and 2, yes. After that, who knows??? But, they'd have probably won another ring were it not for that ridiculous Derek Fisher shot in '04, and may have won yet another one if they didn't foul Dirk on his layup in '06 (the 3-point play tying the game). A legitimate argument could be made that the Spurs are two crazy plays away from being a 5 time repeating champion. On the flipside, a legitimate argument could be made that only 2 of the Spurs 4 titles were cases of the best team winning it all. Frankly, if the Spurs would've beat the Mavs in '06, the Heat would've been done. Hell, even against Dallas, the Heat needed all kinds of help from the refs.

[Dark Horse]

Today was just stupidity by D'Antoni, at the end. I was surprised by how flat the Spurs came out. Took 'm forever to get going. But the fouling situation/avoiding fouls strategy clearly dominated the second half. No easy layups for Spurs in first half. In the second half it was back to free passage around Shaq and Amare. That's what turned the game around. Without the fouling situation this one isn't close.

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Today was just stupidity by D'Antoni, at the end. I was surprised by how flat the Spurs came out. Took 'm forever to get going. But the fouling situation/avoiding fouls strategy clearly dominated the second half. No easy layups for Spurs in first half. In the second half it was back to free passage around Shaq and Amare. That's what turned the game around. Without the fouling situation this one isn't close.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[ryanXL977]

mavs were better than spurs last year and the year before
not this year or 05

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by babaoriley

Agree wholeheartedly.

That's why I'm so p*ssed off about the flopping. It decides the entire strategy and unfoldment of the game. That's very different than pushing off to get an advantage for a shot.

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

That's why I'm so p*ssed off about the flopping. It decides the entire strategy and unfoldment of the game. That's very different than pushing off to get an advantage for a shot.

Maybe Phoenix should practice flopping between now and Monday. (only half kidding)

[NEP Dynasty]

I agree with Dark Horse. The Spurs have attempted to turn basketball into something that it isn't, and should never be.

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by NEP Dynasty

I agree with Dark Horse. The Spurs have attempted to turn basketball into something that it isn't, and should never be.

I can't possibly tell you how funny to read that post coming from a poster named NEP Dynasty...

[Tsoprano]

The spurs have cheated and dirty-played their way into the finals each year. Even before their title runs, they TANKED the last portion of the season to get pick rights, in the end getting Tim Duncan.

They are the kings of flopping, whether that be Bowen, Ginobli, and Denzel Thomas (a newly accquired dirty player to their filthy roster).

Still a phenomenal team, but when they have the chance to rob a team, they will capatolize!!

[babaoriley]

Someone please show me how they played "dirtier" than Phoenix in game 2. My interest is piqued.

[Dark Horse]

Nobody is saying they do it EVERY game. Everybody except the staunchest Spurs fans realizes how game 1 was won. A normally played game 2 offers no shelter from the storm. The Spurs have redefined 'dirty', and when necessary they turn to their trick book. Without fail.

[NEP Dynasty]

Originally Posted by babaoriley

I can't possibly tell you how funny to read that post coming from a poster named NEP Dynasty...

Well, the Patriots did something every single team does in the league, and happened to get caught. It's not like Belichick invented the taping procedures, Mangini just happens to be a snitch.

The Spurs is a different story. I'm not saying I don't like the Spurs, but some things they do don't belong.

[Dark Horse]

A lot of people seem to think flopping was imported into the NBA with players that grew up in soccer cultures. I tend to agree. But soccer wasn't always like that.

When you go back to the early seventies there was no flopping in soccer. Quite the contrary. The game was loaded with flying, bone crushing tackles. You should have seen some of the encounters between the champions of Europe and South-America. Red cards were only a theoretical part of the game. You'd have to KO somebody right in front of the ref to get red-carded.

The first player to flop on a main stage, twice in the same World Cup, was Holzenbein from Germany. He pulled the same trick in the 1974 semifinal and final, both resulting in a penalty kick. Years later he admitted to this, but by then nobody cared, because it had become part of the soccer culture. If the referee in the final had seen the images from the previous game he could have known, but flopping was so unknown that it might not have rang a bell anyway.

Later the FIFA wanted the clean the game up, so refs suddenly got generous with red cards. Hard tackles, especially from behind, were out. Previously, they had been used either to keep opponents in check - in "if you pull that sh*t one more time, you're going down" fashion-, or to intimidate opponents right off the bat. I know one international team with two defenders who bet each game on who would first bury their opponent. Invariably, minutes into the game, the winner's opposing player would walk only half conscious through the rest of the game. It was a men's game that could and often did get ugly. All that changed when red cards entered the game for real...

Suddenly victims knew they were 'protected'. Now players could no longer settle things amongst themselves (as they still can today in hockey), and the balance shifted 180 degrees from 'over-my-dead-body' to crybabies crying for their mothers. Gradually, this sick mindset grew into a whole art of making it look like a player was fouled. Players would practice their trickery to make it look more convincing. Obviously, this could never have been FIFA's intent, but the genie was out of the bottle.

If this was bad for soccer, it found its ideal environment in basketball, where referees have a far greater impact on the game. One or two possessions in basketball will decide a close game. Not only that but players with fouls can't defend as hard. In basketball the art of flopping has found its perfect match.

So now all we can do is hope for things to come full circle. Let's go back to letting players settle things among themselves. I know it will never happen, but if a player gets caught flopping (taking a charge is not flopping, by the way), then he should be 'open season' for one hard foul against him; no foul called. Wouldn't that make the game a lot more exciting?! Instead of another eye-rolling "another flop...", it would be: "He flopped!! Whohoooo! Let's see how they take his head off next!"

[babaoriley]

Cheating and dirty are the wrong words. That's all I'm saying. If this is SOP for the Spurs over the past few years (as many are implying) then that makes every other coach in the league a moron for not following suit. I've watched probably 75% of the Spurs games over the past 5 years and nearly every playoff game. What they do is use every advantage they have to get into opponents' heads, plain and simple. They're a veteran team and they do veteran things. Ginobili can be a complete and utter joke with his flailing around like he's getting shot out of a cannon, but I don't see the case for anyone else besides possibly Fab Oberto (though in his defense, he's just a less talented, softer, whiter version of Dikembe Mutombo). I'll go down the list:

Bowen: a "Dirty" player??? No more dirty than Raja Bell, Bill Laimbeer or Rick Mahorn, Kevin McHale, Kenyon Martin (before he went soft), Dennis Rodman, and about 50 other defensive stoppers. His lack of an offensive presence makes it absolutely imperative that he be remarkably tuned in on defense. The anti-Ginobili, if you will. Ginobili gets deservedly criticized for flopping, but then on the flipside, a throwback player like Bowen is criticized for being "dirty"? How does that work, exactly?

Parker: He must cheat. He runs layup drills on the Suns.

Duncan: Yep, a beacon of cheating and dirty play if there ever was one. Funny thing is, he's the 2nd biggest whiner on this team if you follow them on a nightly basis.

Finley: I mean, really???

Vaughn: the only skill he has is defense. I could beat him in a game of horse, shooting only with my left hand.

Horry: I'll always remember those games where Horry altered the outcome by cheating.

Kurt Thomas: A grade-A douchebag who has always played physically when he's on a contender. Did you guys forget the Knicks days (when they mattered)?

Damon Stoudamire: Stupid but not a cheater. If you're not sure why he's stupid just google "Damon stoudamire marijuana foil"

Brent Barry, Ime Udoka and Matt Bonner should all be locked away. That's a given.

Really, I can sympathize with those who feel that Manu's flopping has gotten out of control. I hate it too. Halt the time, there's no call, and then Manu is down and the Spurs are suddenly playing 4 against 5 for a few seconds, often resulting in wide open shots. The Spurs would be better if Manu focused on NOT flopping. But "dirty" and "cheating"??? C'mon... They're an unlikeable bunch of uninteresting overachievers who at one time were hated for being so squeaky clean. The "edginess" is a welcome change of pace.

[Dark Horse]

Did you see Ginobili tripping over his own leg in the 2Q? That's a soccer trick. Nobody goes for that in soccer anymore, but it must be news to NBA refs.

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Did you see Ginobili tripping over his own leg in the 2Q? That's a soccer trick. Nobody goes for that in soccer anymore, but it must be news to NBA refs.

DH, I love ya' bro, but I think this is more frustration with your Suns right now than anything else. Completely outplayed to this point.

[moses millsap]

Outclassed. Outclassed.

[Dark Horse]

Suns go on a little roll. Close it to 6 or 7 pts, and Ginobili flops twice in a row. That's two possessions. It easily gets lost in the flow of the game, but you and I know it's used to turn momentum around.

Nash looks old. Suns played faster without him.

D'Antoni is being outcoached. He may get fired.

[Dark Horse]

Suns traded for Shaq to get by Spurs. But they forgot that it was their quickness that gave the Spurs trouble. This slowed down version of the Suns is just too predictable, and too slow on defense.

[babaoriley]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Suns traded for Shaq to get by Spurs. But they forgot that it was their quickness that gave the Spurs trouble. This slowed down version of the Suns is just too predictable, and too slow on defense.

Yep, most Spurs fans breathed a sigh of relief when Marion got shipped.

[ryanXL977]

suns are hilarious
every yr people pick em
every yr they lose to sa

suns suck

go lakers

[r00kie]

i had the spurs +250 for $1000 to win $2500 tonight

Great Game

[Dark Horse]

Suns gave basketball a lot these past years. An incredible show. Last year was their best shot at the title, and we all know how that ended. The trauma from that carried over to this year. Somehow, somewhere they stopped believing how close they really were, and started believing the usual critique that they lacked defense. Add an unhappy Shawn Marion and the Shaq deal seemed worth the risk. It didn't work out. They lost. So what? At least they gambled.

[rake922]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Suns gave basketball a lot these past years. An incredible show. Last year was their best shot at the title, and we all know how that ended. The trauma from that carried over to this year. Somehow, somewhere they stopped believing how close they really were, and started believing the usual critique that they lacked defense. Add an unhappy Shawn Marion and the Shaq deal seemed worth the risk. It didn't work out. They lost. So what? At least they gambled.

You kind of contradict yourself. You admit how close they were, then give props to making a risky deal for Shaq.