[bettilimbroke999]

My final thoughts on poker are that the game is all luck. If I ever play again it will be just for fun like .50/1 NL at the local casino around here once a year or something just tryin to get lucky and be that days winner. I played players at the casino today that were worse than I have words to describe, anything you would raise preflop would be called (1/2 NL), if you raised 25 you would get four callers (I buyin for the max of 200). I flopped a set of queens one hand and bet 30 dollars on a flop of qq4 with two spades on the flop (I had KQ), I was called by 36 of hearts and he turned and rivered heart heart (non King of hearts and no pairing the board) to bust me after calling 30 on the flop and 70 on the turn. These idiots were drunken idiots who all thought they were doyle brunson and none of them could spell poker or pot odds or implied odds they just called if you bet a ton and if you went all in and they had flopped any kind of straight/flush draw they would call and proceed to outdraw you and bust you. The truth is poker is around 99% luck and I don't see rocket scientist or advanced mathematicians dominating the world series of poker, it's canadian degenerates like daniel negreanu, loose psychos like sammy farha, luckboxes like jamie gold and chris moneymaker who basically didn't even play a tournament before WINNING THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!!! Have you ever heard of a skill based game where you could win the world championship having basically never played before, I mean I've basically never played tennis, what are the odds I'm going to win Wimbledon this year??? In poker however the unheard of luckbox winner is almost a guarantee that he will destroy all the "seasoned pros" which are really just luckbox degenerates themselves (as soon as they run out of luck they get barrelled in and we don't see them on HSP or w/e joke show where some billionaire with no clue owns the "best" poker players in the world simply b/c his cards are better and when a guys cards are better HE BEATS YOU, WAKE UP AND REALIZE IT, NO ONE IS LAYING DOWN THEIR STRAIGHTS AND FLUSHES TO YOUR DUMBASS B/C YOU THINK YOU ARE THE FUKIN NEXT LUCKBOX DEGENERATE THAT COULD GET LUCKY ENOUGH TO WIN THE WORLD LUCKBOX OPEN. Anyway in closing poker is a fukin joke and should be played strictly with excess money for recreation, any winnings are a miracle and losses are to be expected.

[wtt0315]

sounds like you were playing at a florida horsetrack poker room Played at one the other day and flop 4 of a kind. 1/2 nl. I had pocket 9's and raised 6 dollars. Had 6 callers. Flop came 993. I check and was raised 10, reraised 20 and called by all 6. I was like what the hell? I just called. Turn was a 4. checked again. Guy raised 30 dollars. 4 callers. the river was a 5. I thought what the hell I checked again. The guy raises 60 and i had a all in of 73 and then i went all in for 102. The rest called. Of course I won the pot, but there was pocket 10's pocket 2's and 6,7 and get this a guy that had like a 10 8He said he was setting up for a bluff but then relized on the river too many people were in to bluff. hehe love it. Those type of games bro you have to be patient and realize you are going lose a lot of bad beats, but just stick with it. Money management is key. I usually try to take 150-200 and double it and when i do i am done. I doubled it in one hand that day and only stayed for 30 minutes.

[Panic]

So what are Hellmuth, Brunson, and Chan..the luckiest guys in the world? Hellmuth has 11 WSOP braclets, Brunson and Chan 10. How do you explain them having that many if it's 99% luck? What about Chan being a main event back to back champ, along with Brunson and Stu Unger(who came back later and won it for a 3rd time)? Sure poker has luck involved, no doubt about it, but to think that there is relatively no skill needed is asinine. Its usually people who complain that the game is all luck and no skill that are the weak players. Its the only way they can grasp the reality of losing and not having to face the fact that they're not very good.

[AgainstAllOdds]

First of all pal, did you raise preflop with that KQ? It doesnt sound like it to me and if you didnt, that was your biggest mistake. You really didnt know what he had...So he could have had you beat after those queens came. He could of had A_Q...Q-4 Two spades(which wouldnt have you beat but he wouldnt be far behind.)....If you thought your hand was the best...you should have push on the turn to get him off of any flush draw...that was the right move here....Im sick of people getting pissed off because instead of putting all thier chips in the pot to get someone off a hand...they keep betting out to to try to get more money and end up letting the other guy catch up...classic. I'd also be intrested to hear what the turn was...If it was anything small(2,5,7)...no way would you get him off that hand or me either.

[purecarnagge]

The biggest thing that pisses me off is flushes and straights. Bet high early if you have something to bounce people out of the hand. Winning 40.00 > having someone get lucky and catch a river. On the other hand when that river goes in and they missed it, just raise them. Personally, I like seeing nothing better than making someone fold on the river... Its like slapping them in the face for being dumb. In a local casino it never happens though.

Otherwise your just inviting someone to get lucky and get that 1 card to beat you. Funny thing is the last time I played I cleaned house on 4 of a kind with 3's. Now thats a bad beat for people. Everyone worries about face cards and crap. I think the guy who went up against me went in for about 100 with 2 pair.

Anyways, I find poker is a grind and usually the beginning of the month is a good time to take the old peoples money. They all get there Social Security checks on the third of the month.

[donjuan]

These threads make me feel warm inside.

[AgainstAllOdds]

Originally Posted by donjuan

These threads make me feel warm inside.

why bud?

[mathdotcom]

Yes, there's skill in poker, but I think it's still only a small % of what makes you a winner. Everyone quotes the fact that Hellmuth, Negreanu, etc. have so many bracelets. Well, I'm not surprised. Hellmuth has been playing professionally for 20 years. Odds are anyone who plays that much, and has reasonable ability, is going to win that many bracelets.

The FullTilt poker ad says "if its all luck, why are there so many familiar faces at all the final tables?". Well, because there are 100s of 'familiar faces' of people who play poker on TV. Of course a few of those 100s of familiar faces will be at the final table every time. How many of these familiar faces get eliminated the first 10 hours of play?

Poker is a waste of time.

[mathdotcom]

Now that there are so many amateurs playing in the WSOP, it's an amateur that wins every year. [Jamie Gold is a decent player, but if you watched the tournament on TV, he got crazy lucky all the time.] It's not like before when Chan won it 2 years in a row, when it was not a popular game at all.

From now on, noone will ever win the WSOP 2 years in a row. Not a chance.

[donjuan]

why bud?

Because it lets me know that there is an endless sea of terrible poker players out there who will also tilt like crazy. This is good in case I ever run extremely cold in sports betting and need to rebuild my bankroll.

[donjuan]

Yes, there's skill in poker, but I think it's still only a small % of what makes you a winner.

What else makes you a winning poker player? Voodoo?

[mathdotcom]

Sorry, I meant 'what can make you a winner' in any given tournament. Yes, the best players can make a consistent profit in the long run because of their skill advantage; I'm just saying it's small. Watch High Stakes Poker... the guy who wins big one week, loses it all the next week. I've seen Negreanu win/lose half a million a bunch of times.

[AgainstAllOdds]

Originally Posted by donjuan

What else makes you a winning poker player? Voodoo?

Pal...I am glad you came to this thread...you are like a breathe of fresh air...there are TOO many guys that try to play poker...they get beat up like the fishes they are, then come to forums and bash poker...its not the cards,the other players or the casino you should be mad at...its the player that ultimatly determines his own fate.

[Panic]

Originally Posted by mathdotcom

Yes, there's skill in poker, but I think it's still only a small % of what makes you a winner. Everyone quotes the fact that Hellmuth, Negreanu, etc. have so many bracelets. Well, I'm not surprised. Hellmuth has been playing professionally for 20 years. Odds are anyone who plays that much, and has reasonable ability, is going to win that many bracelets.
The FullTilt poker ad says "if its all luck, why are there so many familiar faces at all the final tables?". Well, because there are 100s of 'familiar faces' of people who play poker on TV. Of course a few of those 100s of familiar faces will be at the final table every time. How many of these familiar faces get eliminated the first 10 hours of play?

Poker is a waste of time.

Plenty of other players that have been playing for 20 years. Pro and amateur alike. Name me just 20 of them that have 11 braclets like Phil.

[mathdotcom]

Indeed. I'll never understand the guys that complain when:

Them: QQ
Other guy: 63h
Flop: Qh9s5s

Them: goes all-in

If you are even a barely decent player, you should be happy if the other guy calls here. Not complain on a sports forum the one time in 20 that other guy wins.

[mathdotcom]

Every poker player has 1000s of brutal bad beat stories. Flopped quads, guy turned/rivered a straight flush. Blah blah.

[mathdotcom]

Panic,

That's exactly my point. With so many guys that have been playing for 20 years, one of them is bound to have that kind of success. How come these other guys can play for 20 years and not be as successful?

[Panic]

Originally Posted by mathdotcom

Panic,

That's exactly my point. With so many guys that have been playing for 20 years, one of them is bound to have that kind of success. How come these other guys can play for 20 years and not be as successful?

The same reason guys who played in the NBA for 15 years didn't have the same amount of rings as Jordan. Talent rises to the top. You're telling me Hellmuth, Chan, Brunson, Siedel, ect..won because the law of averages was on their side?

[mathdotcom]

I'm just saying that these guys have been around for 20+ years, and are considered the world's best, yet have only a handful of bracelets most of which were won in small tournaments by today's standards. The skill advantage is very small.

[Panic]

All 3 of the top bracelet winners(Hellmuth, Chan, and Brunson) have won a bracelet in the last 3 years.(Hellmuth has won 2). This is after the poker boom when the fields have been increased.

[mathdotcom]

The fact that Hellmuth has won 2 in the past 3 years helps that he is among the top I admit there are very skilled players out there, I'm just trying to argue that the skill/luck aspect of poker is mostly luck. Some say it's 50/50, I'd claim it's 10/90 skill/luck.

[mathdotcom]

What are the stats on Erick Lindgren? I've never seen that guy make a good decision on TV.

[Panic]

I don't know. I've never liked his game.

[Panic]

I agree with on the fact that there is a skill/luck ratio. Mine would be much different than yours, but that was why I posted my first response because the guy was making it look like it was all luck.

[mathdotcom]

No wonder he sucks.

[Panic]

A guy who I like to watch play is Hoyt Corkins.

[jjgold]

No such thing as a pro poker player, if such a thing they would always be at final tables, but in reality all no names are at final tables now.

Lol..tired of looking at the same 10 guys on all these poker websites promoting on how good they are.

Most of the guys that won tourneys in the past won without many players in them, now everyone is playing and anyone can win because it is a game of chance.

Negrandau is lucky if he wins like 3 tourney the rest of his life and he plays all the time.

Finally most so called pro poker players are flat broke, Danny would be broke too if it was not for endorsements, they are sure not making money playing poker.

[Panic]

Ever heard of Allen Cunningham, JJ? He has 5 bracelets and was at the final table in 2006.

[mathdotcom]

Yeah, but how many guys have that many bracelets. How many of them enter the WSOP(all of them)? Call that number x. Call y the total # of entrants. The probability x/y of one of them getting to the final table is pretty reasonable. Like the FullTilt ad I mentioned... "why is it that so many final tables have so many familiar faces"? That's just one face... and a damn ugly one

[twtb19]

Originally Posted by Panic

So what are Hellmuth, Brunson, and Chan..the luckiest guys in the world? Hellmuth has 11 WSOP braclets, Brunson and Chan 10. How do you explain them having that many if it's 99% luck? What about Chan being a main event back to back champ, along with Brunson and Stu Unger(who came back later and won it for a 3rd time)? Sure poker has luck involved, no doubt about it, but to think that there is relatively no skill needed is asinine. Its usually people who complain that the game is all luck and no skill that are the weak players. Its the only way they can grasp the reality of losing and not having to face the fact that they're not very good.

I agree it is a game of skill and skilled players will take the unskilled players the majority of the time. However the guys you mentioned won most of their titles before all the internet get-rich quick kids started playing. Now they all call everything just trying to get lucky and busting a lot of good hands and good players. In the past the hands these kids play would have been folded realizing it is not a good bet, now these guys are more of the "pot committed, let it ride" type.

[Panic]

Sure, the field has been flooded, but what other scenario can you do that to and not see a change. Let me quadruple the amount of people Roger Federer has to go through, quadruple the amount of people Tiger has to go through to win, then lets see how many tourneys they win. They will have a bad day and someone will catch lightning in a bottle to beat them.

[Panic]

Originally Posted by twtb19

I agree it is a game of skill and skilled players will take the unskilled players the majority of the time. However the guys you mentioned won most of their titles before all the internet get-rich quick kids started playing. Now they all call everything just trying to get lucky and busting a lot of good hands and good players. In the past the hands these kids play would have been folded realizing it is not a good bet, now these guys are more of the "pot committed, let it ride" type.

Exactly. A flooded field.

[twtb19]

Originally Posted by Panic

Sure, the field has been flooded, but what other scenario can you do that to and not see a change. Let me quadruple the amount of people Roger Federer has to go through, quadruple the amount of people Tiger has to go through to win, then lets see how many tourneys they win. They will have a bad day and someone will catch lightning in a bottle to beat them.

Im not arguing with you Panic, just stating why we see many more new faces in poker and the legends getting bumped early. I think poker is much different than Tiger(golf) and Federer(tennis) because they completely control the outcome so it isn't relying on luck. Could someone hit a netcord and beat Federer, sure, but could they do it for 3 or 5 sets....not a chance. Some days players don't play at their best level, but that isn't luck, that is taking advantage of an opportunity.

In poker however you can play your hand perfectly and still lose to someone that gets lucky...why the odds are still in favor of the better player I don't think comparing this to actual skill sports is correct because a novice could get lucky. I could go to the World Series of Poker and get a hot streak of luck and walk away a winner. Could I do this against Tiger or Federer, not a chance and I play much more golf and tennis than poker.

[donjuan]

Sorry, I meant 'what can make you a winner' in any given tournament. Yes, the best players can make a consistent profit in the long run because of their skill advantage; I'm just saying it's small. Watch High Stakes Poker... the guy who wins big one week, loses it all the next week. I've seen Negreanu win/lose half a million a bunch of times.

Sure, but the higher the stakes are, the tougher the game is. Edges at 1/2 NL are ridiculous at times.

JJ,

Most professional poker players are cash game players.

[Panic]

Originally Posted by twtb19

Im not arguing with you Panic, just stating why we see many more new faces in poker and the legends getting bumped early. I think poker is much different than Tiger(golf) and Federer(tennis) because they completely control the outcome so it isn't relying on luck. Could someone hit a netcord and beat Federer, sure, but could they do it for 3 or 5 sets....not a chance. Some days players don't play at their best level, but that isn't luck, that is taking advantage of an opportunity.

In poker however you can play your hand perfectly and still lose to someone that gets lucky...why the odds are still in favor of the better player I don't think comparing this to actual skill sports is correct because a novice could get lucky. I could go to the World Series of Poker and get a hot streak of luck and walk away a winner. Could I do this against Tiger or Federer, not a chance and I play much more golf and tennis than poker.

I agree. I know golf and tennis are all skill. The point I was trying to make is this: I would like to see the WSOP do like other tournaments in other sports and make it qualification based. Where only 1500 players can play and you have to qualify to make it. Then I bet that 90% of the final table would be Pro's. Instead of every Tom, Dick, and Harry off the street come in and just drop the dough and play.