[donjuan]

Ty Cobb or Ricky Henderson? Discuss.

Note: I'm aware Cobb did not hit leadoff his entire career. However his stats are ideal for a leadoff hitter and he did bat there a significant amount of the time.

[GSW4life]

Rickey, hands down...also the greatest base stealer ever...turns a walk into a scoring opportunity by stealing 2nd and 3rd! Talk about a leadoff threat.

I'm a little biased though, been going to A's games since I could walk and Rickey was always my favorite growing up. Even had those bright neon green batting gloves...love the 80's!!

[Sportsgirl]

Ty Cobb - even though he was a racist hater.

His lifetime (1905-28) batting average, from the Encyclopedia of Baseball, .366, is nearly 10 points better than that of the No. 2 all-time hitter, Rogers Hornsby.

[buztah]

Henderson. If he got on first by any means you had might as well chaulk it up to a double or triple because he would steal his way into scoring position and phuck with every pitcher's head.

[5 star bomb]

Ty Cobb. Lifetime .366 hitter with a career .433 obp. It doesnt get much better than that. Cobb had 724 doubles to Rickey’s 486, and an amazing 295 triples to Rickey’s 62.... Ricky has him in hrs and sbs. But overall if I had to pick one or the other without hesitation I would take Ty Cobb

[jjgold]

Ricky hands down

Most stolen bases ever
Most Runs Scored ever
2nd most walks ever
most leadoff hrs ever

CASE CLOSED

[20Four7]

Once I read the title my mind said Ricky Henderson even tho I hate the guy. I'd have to research exactly what Ty Cobb did as a leader off guy since I didn't exactly watch him play.

[donjuan]

OBP is far more important than AVG for a leadoff hitter.

A few stats:

Henderson: .401 OBP, 1406 SBs, 80.8% SB success rate, .313 EqA, 179.6 WARP3

Cobb: .433 OBP, 892 SBs, 83.3% SB success rate, .326 EqA 185.8 WARP3

[donjuan]

Most stolen bases ever

Cobb had a higher success rate, though.

[mofome]

Brady Anderson
Cobb
Henderson

[NEP Dynasty]

Coco Crisp

[CashMoney]

Henderson by far was the greatest of all time.

[thegreatdiatchi]

Originally Posted by mofome

Brady Anderson
Cobb
Henderson

Brady Anderson is up there imo (top 10) but I don't think he belongs in the same room has Henderson & Cobb. I would have to say Cobb here because of the higher success rate. But it's close.

[CashMoney]

It's 2 diffiuclt to compare players from different generations but I still think that Henderson overall was the best leadoff hitter of all time.

Cobb - Best of his time
Henderson - Best of his time

[TexansFan]

Brady Anderson? Seriously?

[Kellen]

Lenny Dykstra

[babaoriley]

Vince Coleman in RBI baseball... Guy has wheels!

[Kellen]

Man, RBI baseball was awesome. I always used the NL, that Dawson, Murphy combo was devastating.

[Kellen]

Kruk, Guerrero, Mike Schmidt, Howard Johnson, Benito Santiago? who else was on that team? John Franco starting pitcher.

[Willie Bee]

If you look at the percentage of time that both led off for their teams, then Henderson was the true leadoff hitter of the two. Cobb batted third a lot of the time for the Tigers. So I'll buy the Henderson arguments for 'leadoff,' but he was nowhere near the complete, pure hitter that Cobbs was.

[wb3bax]

ricky henderson was unbelievable!

[Richkas]

Vince Coleman

[MadCapper]

Ted Williams would have made the best leadoff hitter IMO.

[Reload]

Ricky Henderson came to mind just when seeing the thread title alone.

[donjuan]

Ted Williams is also possibly the best baseball player ever, period. Career adjusted EqA of .358, and that doesn't even take into account the fact that he missed 3 years in his prime to serve his country in WWII.

[Willie Bee]

Good point about Williams and his military service, DonJuan. And there's a great story about him and his draft status being changed once the US entered WWII. He appealed the change from a lower number (due to him being the sole supporter of his family) to 1A, the press ate him alive for his lack of patriotism, and he dropped it to join the Naval Aviator program, returned to baseball eventually and was then recalled for Korea in 1952.

Can you imagine the media roasting someone like Derek Jeter or Ryan Howard for trying to avoid military service?

[frankiecheese]

is for Ricky Henderson -- he could almost take over a game with his steals and leadoff HR's.

[Otters27]

I think if Ichiro played whole career in MLB he would eventually be the best.

[Patrick McIrish]

Case might be made for Ichiro if he started (and ends here). That said the best of all time is Charley Hustle, the rest are just playing for the on deck circle.

[donjuan]

Rose and Ichiro are not good enough at getting on base or even just hitting in general. Their OBPs and EqAs are good, but not great. Also, Rose's SB success rate is atrocious.

[rjt721]

Originally Posted by donjuan

OBP is far more important than AVG for a leadoff hitter.

A few stats:

Henderson: .401 OBP, 1406 SBs, 80.8% SB success rate, .313 EqA, 179.6 WARP3

Cobb: .433 OBP, 892 SBs, 83.3% SB success rate, .326 EqA 185.8 WARP3

End of discussion.

[Patrick McIrish]

Originally Posted by donjuan

Rose and Ichiro are not good enough at getting on base or even just hitting in general. Their OBPs and EqAs are good, but not great. Also, Rose's SB success rate is atrocious.

They don't ask you to steal much when Morgan, Bench, Concepcion, George Foster, Perez and a few other studs are hitting behind you in the order. Cobb? Please, Rose would hit .600 if he played in that era, probably throw a few no-hitters as well. I don't really believe that but always fun to throw in the "that era was bigger, faster, and stronger" to muddy the waters.

Rose is my personal choice, stats aside. Not only more hits, durabilty, a hustle that carried over to the whole team you can't put a price on, he's there in the dugout with extra outs if your bookie gets popped over the weekend. My kind of guy. Long live Charley Hustle!!!!

[BeatTheJerk]

r.henderson

[donjuan]

They don't ask you to steal much when Morgan, Bench, Concepcion, George Foster, Perez and a few other studs are hitting behind you in the order.

So when you do, surely you should have better than a ridiculously awful 57% success rate? Also, Rose's adjust EqA is nowhere near Cobb's.

[Patrick McIrish]

Don - when you hit first in a lineup like the Big Red Machine it's not as important for your lead-off man to steal a lot of bases. That team was loaded with power, it was not necessary for him to be stealing a lot of bases like if he'd played on a speed team like the Cards in the Coleman days. That said of course 57% is awful, he certainly wasn't the basestealer the other two was, nobody can argue otherwise. Frankly though the two you mentioned wouldn't ever make my top spots for leadoff hitter if I was somehow drafting a team today. Yes, statistically they might qualify, but both were cancers in the lockerroom most of their career. Henderson was always a me-first guy, Cobb was probably the most hated in the game during that entire era, even his own teammates weren't fond of him. So by the numbers of course they are on top, in real life arena I wouldn't be interested frankly. Just my opinion of course if that's what you were after.