[5 star bomb]

Do NOT ever let your kid throw a curve ball until at least the High School level. I work part time at a baseball clinic here in the Chicago area and I was working with a 10 year old kid. This kid is one hell of an athlete for his age and in the middle of our session he asked me if I could show him the right way to grip a curve ball, and a slider, and a sinker and etc... I then went into explaining the damages it can do to a humans elbow and how the throwing motion is not a natural motion. Pitching wears on the ligaments, tendons and the muscles, and it forces joints to bend at extreme angles and rubs the surfaces of bones against each other in a way nature didnt intend. So throwing curve balls, sliders, etc will only put more strain on the arm and increase the odds of having elbow problems in the future. Now days it seems no matter what level your playing at there is a perceived pressure to win at any cost, but its not worth the expense of a young arm. As a pitcher, you only have so many bullets in your arm and it would be a shame to waste all of them or break the gun when you are just a kid. You want and need that arm strength when it counts, when you have a chance at scholarships or if lucky, getting drafted at a higher level. So for your kids sake teach him to throw a change up instead. There are many different kinds of change ups. Work with him on that, you would be amazed at the high school level and even college level how many pitchers cant throw a good change up. Heck even in MLB the change up is a very hard pitch to perfect. But if you work on that with your kid at a young age it will definitely benefit him much more because it wont strain his arm and he will have a killer change up by the time hes playing at a higher level. I started throwing a curve ball when I was 9 years old and it was the absolute worst thing ever. I had an awesome curve ball 12 to 6 but it did so much damage I had 2 surgeries to my elbow by the time I was 21.

[Thremp]

And uh.... No one cares if you have a breaking ball in HS. No one gets drafted for having a plus plus curve. They expect you to pick up that skill in the minors.

[5 star bomb]

And uh.... No one cares if you have a breaking ball in HS. No one gets drafted for having a plus plus curve. They expect you to pick up that skill in the minors.

I didnt say they care if you have a good curve in high school. They dont at all, I am just saying no kid should be throwing these pitches until they are in High School at the earliest. I have seen countless kids 12 and under throwing curve balls and its not good at all for their arm

[2Pac]

And uh.... No one cares if you have a breaking ball in HS. No one gets drafted for having a plus plus curve. They expect you to pick up that skill in the minors.

Asinine. Not everyone throws 90mph. Some people get drafted on their curve alone.




And as for not throwing a curve until HS, that's bullshit too. It should be taken on a case by case basis, and taught properly. The reason these kids are suffering from injuries is because the people teaching them how to throw the curveball have no idea what they're doing.

[robzilla]

I injured the ligaments in my right elbow when I was 11 or 12. I could not straighten my arm for a couple months. Now I cant naturally throw over hand. My arm falls to a half side arm throw when I throw. When I was 15 a Detroit tigers scout said I had the best breaking ball he had ever seen for someone my age. When a batter would stand in the box, they would bail out right away cuz my arm action looked like I was throwing at them, but it would always break and catch the inside of the plate. I can throw over hand, but I have to think about it when Im doing it.

[BAUS]

As a pitcher, you only have so many bullets in your arm

Disagree. Arm strength can be trained. This line of thinking is one of the reasons US baseball is falling behind other countries. Players in countries such as Japan and Australia are trained by throwing, and throwing, and throwing.......remember the Matsuzaka stories in Spring Training last year? He got on the mound and threw a 101 bullpen first day of ST...unheard of in North America where pitchers are babied.

I agree with the change up vs. curveball for young players. No arm strain, and it's effective. It's the pitch of the future.

BAUS

[Thremp]

Asinine. Not everyone throws 90mph. Some people get drafted on their curve alone.

These don't connect at all. If you're a tall lefty with a mid 80s fastball. You'll get drafted.

But it doesn't mean he has a curve. Please talk about what you know. Or you can show me up and link me to a prospect who has no fastball and a sick 12-6 curve.

[mofome]

These don't connect at all. If you're a tall lefty with a mid 80s fastball. You'll get drafted.

But it doesn't mean he has a curve. Please talk about what you know. Or you can show me up and link me to a prospect who has no fastball and a sick 12-6 curve.

john stephens. what a disaster he was, even though he had some nice minor league numbers coming up.

[Thremp]

I didnt say they care if you have a good curve in high school. They dont at all, I am just saying no kid should be throwing these pitches until they are in High School at the earliest. I have seen countless kids 12 and under throwing curve balls and its not good at all for their arm

I wasn't disagreeing with what you said, but anyone with hopes of a pro career trying to learn a curve in HS is a waste of time and effort. You're much better served trying to hone your mechanics: increase your hip shoulder separation, loading your scapula better, keeping solid pace through your delivery, finding a correct arm slot, etc etc than sitting around learning to throw a pitch they don't want you to throw.

[mofome]

I wasn't disagreeing with what you said, but anyone with hopes of a pro career trying to learn a curve in HS is a waste of time and effort. You're much better served trying to hone your mechanics: increase your hip shoulder separation, loading your scapula better, keeping solid pace through your delivery, finding a correct arm slot, etc etc than sitting around learning to throw a pitch they don't want you to throw.

im no baseball scout, but some of these kids get rushed to the majors without being able to change speeds effectively. guys like liz and morrow come to mind and each is supposed to be a starter in 08. i dont see how its going to work.

[rugbybdyb]

Good discussion fellas, I do have to say that in any sport you have to be careful with the kids for them not to get burned out and for the kids joints etc to last.

[mofome]

what do you guys think about the heavy loads pitchers used to have some 40/30 years ago. i mean it wasnt unheard of to start both games of a double header...

whats changed over the years? why cant pitchers handle the same load that it seemed they used to?

[Willie Bee]

It should be taken on a case by case basis, and taught properly. The reason these kids are suffering from injuries is because the people teaching them how to throw the curveball have no idea what they're doing.

The case-by-case comment makes sense, but there is still a question of allowing a kid's body to fully develop, including the tendons and ligaments. And it is rare for anyone to have reached that stage until they are 15-16.

I umpire Little League, and steps have been taken to at least reduce the damage that an overzealous coach can do to a kid. One of those steps is pitch counts nowadays in LLB. We have also not allowed breaking balls in our league for years now. There aren't too many high-end coaches, certainly not enough to go around, to work with the kids at that level.

[Thremp]

john stephens. what a disaster he was, even though he had some nice minor league numbers coming up.

Check your sources. He was not a curveball amateur. He was injured after he was signed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_St...ball_player%29

[Thremp]

what do you guys think about the heavy loads pitchers used to have some 40/30 years ago. i mean it wasnt unheard of to start both games of a double header...

whats changed over the years? why cant pitchers handle the same load that it seemed they used to?

They pitch much much longer now.


It seems arms have a finite amount of work they can handle.

[2Pac]

These don't connect at all. If you're a tall lefty with a mid 80s fastball. You'll get drafted.

But it doesn't mean he has a curve. Please talk about what you know. Or you can show me up and link me to a prospect who has no fastball and a sick 12-6 curve.

Yankees thought enough of Kei Igawa, who had a below average fastball but a plus curve.

[mofome]

Check your sources. He was not a curveball amateur. He was injured after he was signed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_St...ball_player%29

check sources for what? stephens had a sic 12-6 curve and no fb. in the minors stephens came up with no fb, but a great curve. he was a prospect and he made it to the majors on that alone.

[matskralc]

check sources for what? stephens had a sic 12-6 curve and no fb. in the minors stephens came up with no fb, but a great curve. he was a prospect and he made it to the majors on that alone.

He only got signed in the first place because, presumably, he had a plus fastball. He was hurt after he was first signed, which destroyed his fastball's velocity. He then relied on/improved his curveball while in the minors to reestablish himself. He was evidently not drafted out of high school with a plus curve.

[Thremp]

Matskralc summed up my exact thoughts.

International prospects are also sketchier with comp to HS kids. You have Jose Tabata who may be the best 17 year old to ever play baseball and then you have guys who're in their mid 20s and MLB ready.

[mofome]

He only got signed in the first place because, presumably, he had a plus fastball. He was hurt after he was first signed, which destroyed his fastball's velocity. He then relied on/improved his curveball while in the minors to reestablish himself. He was evidently not drafted out of high school with a plus curve.

remp asked to name a prospect that had no fb and a great curve. thats what i did. stephens wasnt drafted out of hs. john stephens went through every level of the minors with no fb and a plus curve. he was in low a, he got hurt, he dominated low a with an 82 mph fb, then he moved up and continued to dominate. he was the best pitcher in the minors without a legit fb.

john stephens is a good answer. thanks.

[mofome]

Matskralc summed up my exact thoughts.

International prospects are also sketchier with comp to HS kids. You have Jose Tabata who may be the best 17 year old to ever play baseball and then you have guys who're in their mid 20s and MLB ready.

you think highly of tabata i see. hes noly a year younger than justin upton isnt he?

[Thremp]

mofome,

Not really. But he was a very young and highly touted international who hasn't really developed very much. I was merely giving the range of them.

Also John Stevens is not an answer for the reasons I described. He had a plus fastball when signed. You're making this very difficult for yourself. While you can succeed without a fb... You can't get signed without one. Reread his wikipedia article. It was 2 years after his signing that he was injured.

[mofome]

mofome,

Not really. But he was a very young and highly touted international who hasn't really developed very much. I was merely giving the range of them.

Also John Stevens is not an answer for the reasons I described. He had a plus fastball when signed. You're making this very difficult for yourself. While you can succeed without a fb... You can't get signed without one. Reread his wikipedia article. It was 2 years after his signing that he was injured.

i know who stephens is, i dont think im making this difficult on myself. i know he was signed before the injury, but thats not the portion of the thread i was replying to. i guess i wasnt truly arguing with your point, more just brining up a guy that had the worst fb ive ever seen but was able to dominate the minors with a curve ball anyway.
1998 he gets hurt
1999 he leads the minors in ks.

maddux didnt have a plus fb and he was drafted in the 2nd round of the draft? you can get signed without a plus fb.

[Thremp]

maddux didnt have a plus fb and he was drafted in the 2nd round of the draft? you can get signed without a plus fb.

I'm barring you from any further comment about baseball ever. For your safety and that of others.

[mofome]

I'm barring you from any further comment about baseball ever. For your safety and that of others.

[Doc JS]

A lot of good points have been made in this thread.

I've coached high school, AAU, Dixie Youth. So, I feel like I've pretty much seen it all from coaches who call for breaking ball after breaking ball from kids who aren't physically mature enough or don't have proper mechanics to be throwing breaking balls. You can't be surprised when the kids break down physically.

Keep this in mind, these kids are throwing these pitches even if you're not teaching them. Go watch little league kids warm up (high school kids too, for that matter) - you'll see knuckleballs, splits, curves, sliders.

I coached my son from the time he was in tee ball till he went to pitch at The Citadel. It got to be a running joke, warming up third pitch - knuckle ball. But in games, until he got to high school, it was four seam fastball, two seam fastball, and change-up. He worked on his arm strength instead of working on a breaking ball and he hit 90 on the radar gun on his 17 birthday.

You can teach kids to throw the breaking ball properly without risk of injury. The problem is most dad's don't know how to teach it. So, kids learn with bad mechanics and get hurt.

You can teach/build/work on arm strength. But only up to a point. If you came programed from the factory to top out at 85. Barring steroids/HGH etc., you're going to top out at 85.

Pitch count, in youth leagues, is extremely important. We lobbied for years to get Dixie Youth to change from innings/week to pitches/week.

I was coaching in a high school fall league where the pitch count limit was 60. But if you finished the inning with less than 60, you could start and finish the next inning. The rule was stupid! I agrued against it every year. Every year, I got voted down. I'd have coaches come up to me in the fourth or fifth inning saying, "I've got my guy at 58 pitches. I'd tell them, "I'm not counting your kids pitches". You do whatever you want." So, his kid would start the next inning, struggle and wind up throwing 90-100 pitches for the evening. When kids get fatigued their mechanics break down - that's how kids get hurt.

Now, my kids knew if they were within 12 pitches of the limit, they weren't going back out the next inning. Period. End of discussion. Put your sweatshirt on. Go run your poles. See ya when ya' get back.

Now, we lost games that we might have/would have won, if I'd ridden my starter, but that wasn't the purpose of the league. It was a developmental league. The object wasn't winning and losing. The object was to get better.

[BAUS]

When kids get fatigued their mechanics break down - that's how kids get hurt.

Best post of this thread. Agree 100% with this.

Regular long toss is the best way to build arm strength, no matter what Dick Mills says.

BAUS

[Doc JS]

Best post of this thread. Agree 100% with this.

Thanks, much!

Regular long toss is the best way to build arm strength

Agree 100%.

no matter what Dick Mills says.

You got some of his video tapes, too?

[harsh506]

I was coaching in a high school fall league where the pitch count limit was 60. But if you finished the inning with less than 60, you could start and finish the next inning. The rule was stupid! I agrued against it every year. Every year, I got voted down. I'd have coaches come up to me in the fourth or fifth inning saying, "I've got my guy at 58 pitches. I'd tell them, "I'm not counting your kids pitches". You do whatever you want." So, his kid would start the next inning, struggle and wind up throwing 90-100 pitches for the evening. When kids get fatigued their mechanics break down - that's how kids get hurt.

.

I agree with this point. When I played Babe Ruth, we would have games on Sat. and Sunday with makeups on Wends. Our max innings were 10 with 7-inning games. I wasn't a pro prospect or super nasty, but i could still dominate.My coach would throw me out there 5 on saturday and 5 on sunday. I learned early not to throw a curve ball , but insted worked off of a 4 seam, 2 seam, split, knuckleball and a sliding kinda change(idk what to call it). my arm would be tired on sunday, but since the new week started on that Wensday, I would Throw 2-3. Now my arm would be dead and i couldnt throw full speed, so i would rely on the split and knuckle. Now being tired, those wouldnt work well either so ide just tough it out and finish up. Now my arms basically dead and most likely im pitchin another 2-3 next game. I actully had the balls and the smarts to tell my coach I cant play, but kids now want to be in there everygame.

[BAUS]

No, but he wrote an article in Collegiate Baseball saying that long toss is a waste of time for developing pitchers aged 15-18. He believes they shouldn't be throwing off flat ground, and only throwing bullpens.

From my experience with this age group, that isn't the best approach for building arm strength.

I wouldn't waste my money on his videos. It isn't rocket science; kids who want to throw hard need to play daily loss toss. Flat ground work and bullpens to work on pitching.

BAUS

[BAUS]

I actully had the balls and the smarts to tell my coach I cant play, but kids now want to be in there everygame.

I think you want kids who want to be out there competing, but the responsibility falls on the leagues/organizations to ensure the safety of athletes. I like the pitch count rules, but again, the US is far behind other countries in the world in this regard. Australia has had pitch counts in all their leagues (18u) for over 10 years now.

BAUS

[5 star bomb]

Disagree. Arm strength can be trained. This line of thinking is one of the reasons US baseball is falling behind other countries. Players in countries such as Japan and Australia are trained by throwing, and throwing, and throwing.......remember the Matsuzaka stories in Spring Training last year? He got on the mound and threw a 101 bullpen first day of ST...unheard of in North America where pitchers are babied.

I agree with the change up vs. curveball for young players. No arm strain, and it's effective. It's the pitch of the future.

BAUS

I see what your saying with arm strength and how it can be trained, however simple long toss and rubber band exercises are a much better way to improve arm strength and velocity. But there is a point where you can overdue it, I have seen many young cats in high school who basically run out of gas by the time they reach high school or college.

[BAUS]

I don't know for sure that rubber band exercises increase velocity, but I do believe they increase durability and help repair shoulder wear & tear. I have no medical facts to back this up, just my own experiences as a player and coach.

What I mean about long toss is, I think it's best for a pitcher to play long toss 5-6 days a week for 12-15 minutes per day, rather than 30 min per day 3 days per week.

The Dick Mills program consists of something like 3-5 bullpens per week; 100+ pitches per bullpen, and no long toss. (I could be wrong with my facts here; I'm just quoting what I remember from an article he wrote). I know that he is very much anti-long toss. I am pro-long toss.

Hope this makes sense.

BAUS