[VegasDave]

I haven't read any books yet (thinking about purchasing a few) but I had a question regarding theory...

How exactly does card counting give you an edge? Seeing as the dealer gets the exact same hands the players do, wouldn't knowing that low cards were coming that could help you make your hand also make the dealer's hand, and wouldn't knowing 10s are coming mean 10s for the dealer, too?

Please clear this up for me, thanks!

[2Pac]

Probability

[donjuan]

Read a book and find out why. Basic answer is that while you will sometimes deviate from basic strategy based on the count, you will be betting more when the deck is in your favor (rich in face cards).
Think about why high cards are bad for the dealer and why low cards are good.

[SBR_John]

Rich high card counts also give the player more blackjacks, the dealer too but the player gets paid x 1.5 for his .

Most hands you will play the same no matter what the count is. Hands of 12,13,14,15 are examples of hands you will play differently if you know the count. Hence you will win more of those hands than you would using basic stradegy.

[Ganchrow]

Even without deviations in strategy based on index numbers (the importance of which decreases as the number of decks and/or the necessity of camouflaging oneself increase) such as taking insurance, standing on 15 or 16 versus a dealer 10, or splitting 10s versus 5s and 6s, there are still other sources of asymmetry which provide excess value for the player under a high count.

For example, (as John already pointed out) the player receives a payout of 3:2 on BJ (while the dealer only receives 1:1), and the dealer is required to hit on hard totals of 16 or less while the player is under no such obligation.

[louis]

Most all of the advantage comes from varying the bet according to the count, and playing perfect basic strategy. Deviating from basic strategy is not going to add much in the games you find today. If you are going to play single deck, then varying from basic stratgegy is worthwhile. Good luck finding a good game.

[Ganchrow]

Originally Posted by louis

Most all of the advantage comes from varying the bet according to the count, and playing perfect basic strategy. Deviating from basic strategy is not going to add much in the games you find today. If you are going to play single deck, then varying from basic stratgegy is worthwhile.

Very true. As I mentioned in an earlier post the importance of index numbers decreases as the number of decks increase.

The said, even with 6-deck shoes there are still important strategies which an advantage player would well to remember (either because they occur frequently or because they provide so much extra value). The most important 18 basic strategy adjustments (in terms of the increase to expected value) are know as the "illustrious 18", which is a term coined by the the Illustrious BJ guru Don Schlesinger (author of the canonical Blackjack Attack).

The illustrious 18 for a simple hi-lo count on a 4D S17 game (i.e., 4-deck, dealer stands on soft 17), along with the applicable index numbers at which the relevant strategy adjustments become +EV are given here in decreasing order of importance: Illustrious 18 Indices. If you only use the first 3 (insurance, and 16s and 15s versus 10s) I think (if memory serves correctly) that that represents as much as two-thirds of the value to be gained from basic strategy modifications. Or something like that.

If you're playing a game which permits surrender there are 4 other adjustments (christened the "fab four" by Schelsinger) which also frequently come into play, although I forget the exact details (but it has to do with 15s and 14s versus dealers As, 9s 10s). I have no idea of their importance relative to the 18 (although I'm sure Google would help).

[BrentCrude]

So how does a casino decide who's counting cards?Counting on fingers?Toe tapping?Talking to yourself?Using a notepad?Just say that you are handicapped and have a disability with little twitches like Tascacks ''spelling''disease.Hell,you could probably tell the dealer FU and call him shit head after every hand and get the casino in trouble with the government disabilities act if you get tossed out.hehe!

I honestly think allot of people do goofball things at the table so they get kicked out where they can tell people they are a professional card counters banned from certain casinos.What good blackjack player that gives classes,seminars and writes books doesn't want it on his resume that he's been banned from casinos.

If you are taking too much time dissrupting the whole rhythm of the game I can understand why the casino would not want that if that's part of your card counting method.

When I was just turning legal age for gambling I would use as many match plays as I could find to play blackjack.Dumby me,I didn't realize that I would be pretty unpopular with the players at the table by doing this and leaving after 2 hands dissrupting the whole flow of the game.One guy finally told me that hardened players don't take kindly to drive by coupon cashers.Hell,Anthony Curtiss the so called most visible professional gambler in Vegas that you see on t.v.5 times a day does that coupon cashing scheme all the time.The casino probably loves the drive by coupon cashers because it upsets the strategy of players etc.

You just can't win at casinos,either you piss off the casino or else the players.My favorite scheme was playing with house chips where you paid $15 and got $30 in chips as a promotion.You could play craps and play $1 chip at a time and if you won,you got the house chip back and a real $1 chip.Here I was,playing a chip that's not even a real dollar and there were thousands of dollars at times riding on my shakes.Once again,half the people love you,half the people hate you.People actually get pissed like you had control of the dice and made bad rolls on purpose because you only were betting the equivalence of less than a dollar.

[donjuan]

So how does a casino decide who's counting cards?Counting on fingers?Toe tapping?Talking to yourself?Using a notepad?Just say that you are handicapped and have a disability with little twitches like Tascacks ''spelling''disease.Hell,you could probably tell the dealer FU and call him head after every hand and get the casino in trouble with the government disabilities act if you get tossed out.hehe!

If you are counting and take no active measures to disguise your play, it is very easy to spot a card counter. It has nothing to do with anything you mentioned.

[BrentCrude]

When the Indian casinos first opened up in my area,they gave tons of blackjack promotions to especially seniors who never played before.In the promo packs would be those little wheelie tipster devices like Richard Simmons deal a meal cards.It held up the games,pissed off the hardened regular players,probably lost the casino $$$$$$.I know it was small potatoes compared to card counting on a grand scale but are there any rules against sitting at a table in Vegas using these devices?

On old Windows packages they used to have a great blackjack game and class room called Dr.blackjack.When you took a bad hit it would stop the game and ask you if you wanted to change your mind and it gave suggestions.You knew you were becoming a decent player when you could sit their continuously for an hour playing rapid fire games and never have the suggestion screen come up.


Do you ever notice that when some novice at a blackjack game takes an awful hit or stand and the hardened players lose,everyone gets upset as they probably should but when a novice takes a bad hit or stand where everyone wins,no one says thanks to the idiot.It's like sports fans who only recognize bad calls that cost you games and never say how many games went your way because of bad calls on the other team.

[Louisvillekid1]

Listen i can count a deck of cards in under 15 seconds and that is the easy part. It is very easy to spot a counter because they will sit there and play the minimum bet for hours waiting for the count to go into their favor, then out of nowhere ( if the count ever goes into their favor) start betting huge amounts. Or they will signal another person to enter the game and start off betting big right away when the count is high. I've tried it a few times and have not really got the count in my favor that much. It's also easy to count cards at home or practicing with your friends , but there are tons of distractions at the table. Even with all that you need a big bankroll to start with to be successful.

[curious]

I have been playing blackjack for many years. I made my living playing blackjack for two years. I have never been "barred" or "backed off" for counting cards. I have never had a casino refuse my play. I don't go out of my way to hide what I am doing. Experienced dealers always know if you are counting. They can usually tell you the count. I always tip good when winning, I know most blackjack "experts" tell you not to tip, but I disagree with that advice. If the dealer wants to make trouble for you, they can, and they know you are counting. I give the dealers a reason not to make trouble for me. Most of the casinos I play at I know the pit bosses and the dealers by name. The only thing I do for cover is use a positive progression when the count is neutral or trending negative. I say trending negative because as the count gets more and more negative that means high cards are coming out and high cards favor the player. I know this is counter intuitive but it is real. A positive progression is a fun way to play when it works and it is easy to teach to other players. I have had many nights when the positive progression was working and I was coaching a table full of "newbies" through betting the progression and their pile of chips kept getting bigger and bigger. And they were having the time of their lives. I know, I know the math nazis will complain that progressions "don't work" but a positive progression is not very dangerous and is very fun to play when working and is good cover.

I am a happy go lucky person by nature and when I am at a table I liven it up. I tell jokes and stories and say all kinds of crazy shit to the dealers. I sing and dance when I win a big hand. I purposely get carried away with acting foolish so that a lot of hands I have no idea what the total of my cards is, let alone what a count might be, or so it seems if you are watching me. Other players like playing at a table I am at. The dealers like the tips. The waitresses like the tips. I would guess that the pit bosses know I'm a sharp player but they don't really care because I am good for their business. I never try to "kill" a casino. I play for medium size stakes, green and black, sometimes green, black, and purple.

I think the reason that people get "barred" (and I have never seen this happen, nor do I know anyone who has been barred) has more to do with demeanor than with being recognized as a "card counter". I know for a fact that some of the pit bosses I know know or at least suspect that I count cards, but they don't care.

I will say that I don't play in Vegas very often, so maybe things are different there.

I would agree that it is hard to find a good game. The most important thing in playing blackjack is finding a good game. A game is valued based on the number of decks, the penetration, and the rules. It is very hard to find a one or two deck game with deep penetration and favorable rules.

There are other techniques that are more valuable than card counting. Shuffle tracking can be awesome. Ace steering is very profitable if you bet big when the Ace is coming. Hole card spooking is a license to print money. I try to find dealers that are sloppy in dealing themselves a hole card so that if I slouch down in my chair I can catch a glance at it.

To be good at blackjack takes hours and hours and hours of study, practice, and travel, travel looking for good games. I don't play very much any more because I frankly don't think all that effort is worth the return. If you put the same amount of effort into your career or into a business you will do much better.

Curious

[tblues2005]

Originally Posted by Louisvillekid1

Listen i can count a deck of cards in under 15 seconds and that is the easy part. It is very easy to spot a counter because they will sit there and play the minimum bet for hours waiting for the count to go into their favor, then out of nowhere ( if the count ever goes into their favor) start betting huge amounts. Or they will signal another person to enter the game and start off betting big right away when the count is high. I've tried it a few times and have not really got the count in my favor that much. It's also easy to count cards at home or practicing with your friends , but there are tons of distractions at the table. Even with all that you need a big bankroll to start with to be successful.

I agree you do need a decent bankroll and if you didn't wager too high sometimes you will be not noticed as much either, I know a guy here that card counts at the casino and he told me that he walks out with $500 each time he gos to the casino and he does that probably about 3 times a week at different casinos, he told me he comes out ahead about 80 percent of the time, he comes with a $250 bankroll he told me and he is a smart person and he just doesn't bet too heavy when he has it in his favor, like if he is at a $25 table, he will be the mininum and then when he gets the cards in his favor he plays say $100, not the max which then tips the pit bosses off, or he will go $75 or something like that so he really doesn't get noticed as badly. He heads to the casino about 2 or 3 times a week and since there is only about 5 or 6 casinos here he just heads there at busy times like on weekend nights or after a ball game when he knows that they are busier and they don't even notice, I have been with him before and he has a plan and he sticks with it. I give him credit for how he does it and he doesn't even have to work at all. He is a professional gambler as they say and he doesn't get greedy like some that get caught and the casino does everything possible to make it harder on the ones that get caught. That is key if you are a card counter you don't want to get caught by the casino and he hasn't had a problem going on three years that I known him.

[THE HITMAN]

Ahhhhhh, the good 'ol days of yesteryear when only one deck was used in "friendly" games when no one even had a ghost of a thought about what you were doing.

[BrentCrude]

You think movies don't influence people.Remember Nicholas Cage and Joe Peschi ransacking blackjack tables in Leaving Las Vegas and Casino?We had a minor mafioso type guy that had a bar named Goodfellas and he got drunk at the local casino and didn't like his luck so he went balistic on the table and got banned for life.A couple years later he was plowing snow on the lake the casino sits on where he had a cabin and he went through the ice with his truck and drowned.All characters should die violent and unusual deaths.What character wants to live to be 100 and die in his sleep with a depend undergarment on with babyfood stains on the front of his shirt.Live fast,get hard,die young and leave a beautiful memory.