[JBC77]

Had some people over to watch the game today. Couple 30 packs, some steaks....good Sunday. I keep hearing, "I hope someone hurts that guy, he shouldn't run up the score."He throws a TD pass in the first half. It looked like he talked some smack to the D after the score. So what? How many superbowls has he won? Can't the guy talk a little smack?

This running up the score thing. Your not supposed to do that in high school....youth sports. This is the NFL. It's the pros.

If I was an NFL coach who got beat bad by these guys, I don't think I would mention running up the score at all. It makes you look like a big baby. A sally.....a sissy. Prepare your team better next time and move on. Whats up with all the haters lately?

I thing people tend to be jealous of those that are better looking and more talented. Even heard a couple of the "great" OB's turned analyst take some shots at him in the last few weeks. Maybe there hating on him because he is blowing the doors off of all their stats.

[HAPPY BOY]

New England = Best team ever

Brady= best QB in the league Hands down

and i hate the fvcking Pats but gotta give credit where its due folks. This team is a fvcking Juggernaut

[SBR Lou]

He was 'talking smack' to the guy who publicly guaranteed a victory, only natural. People who hate on him just don't like watching greatness, guy is in the prime of his career and is shattering every record in the books. Much respect Tom!

[Thremp]

LOL at anyone thinking Brady > Peyton. Basically retarded.

[matskralc]

Your not supposed to do that in high school....youth sports. This is the NFL. It's the pros.

The same guys who are the rolemodels for every youth football player, 99.9% of whom won't ever even sniff the NFL.

I do agree that opposing coaches or players publicly complaining about it is lame, though.

[jjgold]

Brady is the best QB that ever lived, now I do not think anyone is a close second. He also is cocky and very tough which some people resent also a great competitor something most players lack these days.

[Thremp]

Brady is the best QB that ever lived, now I do not think anyone is a close second. He also is cocky and very tough which some people resent also a great competitor something most players lack these days.

I rest my case.

[Starion]

Brady is great, but calling him the best ever may be premature. One thing I will say to his credit. He puts his money where his mouth is which speaks volumes about his competitive nature. He restructured his contract and took less money in order to bring talent to NE. Not many players out there would do that.

[dwaechte]

LOL at anyone thinking Brady > Peyton. Basically retarded.

Mann Thremp, I thought I was conceited and condescending. With you here, I have to look a lot better in comparison.


But seriously, I think most can agree there is a serious debate between Manning and Brady.

They're both extremely intelligent with extremely great work ethics. Hard to say either has the advantage there. Mannings football IQ may be a sliver higher if anything.

Manning throws a more crisp pass that looks easier to catch, and he has developed such a rapport with his receivers. Wayne, Clarke, and Harrison are so in sync with him its disguting.

But all those things aside, I feel Brady is slightly better. I believe hes better at sensing pressure and getting rid of the ball, and he's better at making tough throws/squeezing it into small spaces.

Anyways, those are just a few comparisons, but no matter which side you stand on, don't you have to atleast admit its a very legitimate debate?

[Thremp]

No, its not. Brady as one all-time great season and now he's betting than Manning? Look over their numbers. Its not even close.

Since 03 Manning has been the best in the league. The only close year is 05. Every other years Manning has been head and shoulder better than Brady (much like vice versa this season). To say its a debate is laughable. Its like debating who's a better third baseman Arod or Chipper. Both are great, but one is truly great and the other merely v v good.

[exstatman]

No, its not. Brady as one all-time great season and now he's betting than Manning? Look over their numbers. Its not even close.

Since 03 Manning has been the best in the league. The only close year is 05. Every other years Manning has been head and shoulder better than Brady (much like vice versa this season). To say its a debate is laughable. Its like debating who's a better third baseman Arod or Chipper. Both are great, but one is truly great and the other merely v v good.

And which of the two has won a World Series ring? Not to say Chipper is a better player, that's silly, but there has to be a value to winning championships. Manning has lost with the better team, has Brady?

[Thremp]

What part of team sports did you miss?

Note: You make a retarded argument. Mention that its stupid as hell. And the proceed with it?

[exstatman]

So Manning is a better individual in a team sport and has won fewer championships than Brady? Therefore he's a better player? OK, got it. Stats don't tell the full story, but when comparing two players, the number of titles is pretty relevant.

[donjuan]

Stats don't tell the full story, but when comparing two players, the number of titles is pretty relevant.

Uh, right. So Darren McFadden is not as good of a RB as whoever the hell Florida had at RB last year? Great argument there.

[exstatman]

Uh, right. So Darren McFadden is not as good of a RB as whoever the hell Florida had at RB last year? Great argument there.

So is comparing college to pro football.

[donjuan]

So is comparing college to pro football.

Ugh. You really are a tard. How about Corey Dillon vs Barry Sanders? OMGZ Corey Dillon is the bestz.

[tullamore]

This is the first year that Brady has had an elite reciever to throw to in Moss. Manning has had Harrison his whole career and Wayne for most of his career. Brady has won 3 Super Bowls throwing to guys named David Patten, David Givens, Bethel Johnson, and the best of the bunch Troy Brown. When given similar weapons to Manning he has put up better individuals stats, and when given less weapons he has won 3 Super Bowls. I will take Brady over Manning any day of the week. I am not ready to call Brady the best ever, but I believe Super Bowl rings should define the greatness of a QB.

[exstatman]

Then I suppose Maurice Clarett should be in the Hall of Fame?

The point was some feel Manning is superior to Brady. What sort of criteria would someone have to use to make that argument? Has Manning won 21 in a row? Or should that read 14 in a row TWICE?

[tullamore]

Then I suppose Maurice Clarett should be in the Hall of Fame?

The point was some feel Manning is superior to Brady. What sort of criteria would someone have to use to make that argument? Has Manning won 21 in a row? Or should that read 14 in a row TWICE?

To me a QB is defined by wins and Super Bowl titles. I am not a huge stat guy, but you can not ignore the fact that Manning will most likely retire from the NFL with all the passing records. Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 ring. Brady is 2 and 1 versus Manning and the Colts in the playoffs. Edge in my opinion Brady.

[donjuan]

The point was some feel Manning is superior to Brady. What sort of criteria would someone have to use to make that argument? Has Manning won 21 in a row? Or should that read 14 in a row TWICE?

How stupid are you people?

What part of team sports did you miss?

[Thremp]

This is the first year that Brady has had an elite reciever to throw to in Moss. Manning has had Harrison his whole career and Wayne for most of his career. Brady has won 3 Super Bowls throwing to guys named David Patten, David Givens, Bethel Johnson, and the best of the bunch Troy Brown. When given similar weapons to Manning he has put up better individuals stats, and when given less weapons he has won 3 Super Bowls. I will take Brady over Manning any day of the week. I am not ready to call Brady the best ever, but I believe Super Bowl rings should define the greatness of a QB.

This argument was sound till you ****tified it with that last sentence. It is true that WR/QB performance is highly correlated. For example all QBs who have TO as a #1 (v other comparable #1s) will have a depressed completion % since he can't hold onto the ****ing ball. Ergo it flows back to the QB in his rating etc.

Manning has never had as quality of a team as Brady and stats typically do tell the whole story when its DVOA DPAR. You sound like guys who talk about batting avgs and HRs. No wonder jjgold says everyone here is a long term loser.

[SBR Lou]

It's interesting A-Rod's name was mentioned here, because like Manning he's struggled during the playoffs. Two minutes left in the game with the championship on the line, there's no one you'd rather hand the ball than Tom Brady. To borrow a line from Floyd Mayweather Jr., great athletes respond better under pressure.

I'll give Manning tons of credit for sealing the deal last year, namely his second half comeback against New England, but as of now Brady has the separation where it counts. These guys are too close in all other facets of the game so you must compare championships. They both read through defenses better than anybody playing, both put up sick numbers when given similarly talented receivers, and are both incredibly accurate.

If they both retire tomorrow, you must say Tom Brady before you say Peyton Manning. They aren't done playing yet though, so that order may very well change.

[jjgold]

Brady does not choke like Manning

Manning still deep down is a choker when it gets tight.

[The Seer]

I think Brady has played on the better overall teams because he has had a defense to work with the whole time he's been there. Since it is a team game I think the only way you can get a gauge is asking yourself what one guy can do on the other guys team. That is also why I think Dan Marino is still the best ever. Put him on those Patriot teams. That is also why I don't think it is Montana. It's early in his career but the best athlete at QB now is Romo (not saying he is the best qb). He just makes plays with his athleticism. Look at the difference he has made on the Cowboys with basically the same team that Bledsoe had.

[dwaechte]

This argument was sound till you ****tified it with that last sentence. It is true that WR/QB performance is highly correlated. For example all QBs who have TO as a #1 (v other comparable #1s) will have a depressed completion % since he can't hold onto the ****ing ball. Ergo it flows back to the QB in his rating etc.

Manning has never had as quality of a team as Brady and stats typically do tell the whole story when its DVOA DPAR. You sound like guys who talk about batting avgs and HRs. No wonder jjgold says everyone here is a long term loser.

Oh wow.. Such a nice and thoughtful guy you are Thremp.


So your only argument as to why Manning is 100%-no questions about it-guaranteed better than Brady is stats? Damn, I guess that settles it then. Manning has better stats, so we better all just listen to Thremp.

This is absolutely nothing like A-Rod-Chipper. In baseball, an individuals offensive performance when using useful statistics(OPS, VORP, RC) has only to do with himself(And his opponent, though I think we can leave that part out of this for now). In football, 10 other teammates contribute to a QB's stats on every single down. Using that comparison shows that you are either not logically sound, you have very little understanding of what you're talking about, or you're simply cherry-picking useless arguments to try and prove your point while hoping noone calls you on it.

DVOA and DPAR are good stats, much better than other typical stats such as QB rating or Comp. %. But even Schatz himself will tell you that they simply haven't found a way to completely seperate individual performance within a teams offensive unit. So no, these stats do not tell the whole story.

Though Brady has probably long had the better "team", I think most football followers(even the ones who know what they're talking about) will tell you that Manning has had the better "offense". Last time I checked, it was primarily a QB's surrounding offense that contributed most to his statistics, not a QB's defense.

Manning has better stats from 2003-2006. Now, this year, it's easy to see that Brady is blowing Peyton out of the water. In a completely unrelated matter, this is the first season when most people feel that Brady's surrounding talent on offense is better than Manning's.


I really dislike it when people attack and criticize others like you do, when you are using such an obviously flawed argument yourself.

[Thremp]

I like how you say "better" for 03-06 and then refer to this year as "is blowing Peyton out of the water". I already addressed that previously. And the previous years weren't even comparable much like this year. Its not the fact that Manning is better, but so much better. While you can pull some of it out to a better o-line, better WRs etc. You can't write off a half decade of blatantly superior play for one guy who is having a complete outlier season, benefiting from variance out the wazoo and padding his stats in garbage time.

Though the point you make is atleast far superior to the others. To use a baseball comp again we could be looking at Adrian Beltre mid-04 and unsure of where he is going. To say that one season proves his finally put it all together and has it figured out is silly to say the least. Brady has been better one season with a far superior offensive unit (not debatable). Manning while having a superior offense the last half decade, has also had performance far better than Brady (they were about as close as this year is). I'm sure you can understand how 12 games does not prove who is a better QB as compared to the 60 before it?

Also, please provide a non-obviously flawed argument. Other than the drivel you attempted with blatant sample size bias.

[matskralc]

Last time I checked, it was primarily a QB's surrounding offense that contributed most to his statistics, not a QB's defense.

It's probably more the system that QB plays in than the personnel he's surrounded with.

[Sportsgirl]

New England = Best team ever

Brady= best QB in the league Hands down

and i hate the fvcking Pats but gotta give credit where its due folks. This team is a fvcking Juggernaut

You're not the only one:

"I told him I hope he breaks the record next week, because it's so much fun watching him play. I don't like him playing against us and how well he played, but it truly is an honor to watch such a great quarterback play the game." — Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger about Tom Brady.

[Thremp]

It's probably more the system that QB plays in than the personnel he's surrounded with.

This is an excellent point I didn't even consider. But wouldn't this mostly affect counting stats instead of rate stats?

[SBR Lou]

You're not the only one:

"I told him I hope he breaks the record next week, because it's so much fun watching him play. I don't like him playing against us and how well he played, but it truly is an honor to watch such a great quarterback play the game." — Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger about Tom Brady.

This is good stuff.

[matskralc]

This is an excellent point I didn't even consider. But wouldn't this mostly affect counting stats instead of rate stats?

Not really. The West Coast System, for instance, relies on short, quick, high-percentage passes, "artificially" inflating a QB's completion percentage and potentially reducing his yards-per-attempt.

[Thremp]

Not really. The West Coast System, for instance, relies on short, quick, high-percentage passes, "artificially" inflating a QB's completion percentage and potentially reducing his yards-per-attempt.

True. I was thinking more along the lines of just old school TD/yards/Completions. I mean who else is passing when up by 3 scores? Maybe on 3rd and 8, but they're just as likely to just give a million carries to their featured back, which isn't really the case here.

But yeah, he's def had a lot of stat padding in garbage time.

[dwaechte]

Not really. The West Coast System, for instance, relies on short, quick, high-percentage passes, "artificially" inflating a QB's completion percentage and potentially reducing his yards-per-attempt.

Well this is just fairly silly IMO.

The system most definitely affects a quarterbacks play and his stats. I should have included this in my original statement, though I was more or less just trying to make the point that offensive surroundings affect a QB's stats, not defensive ones. Anyways, to say the system affects a QB more than his surrounding players? At an NFL level? That's primarily saying that a head coach and offensive co-ordinator have more to do with a QB's stats than the other 10 players on the field. It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who follows the NFL closely could think that. In fact, you don't even need to look very far. Peyton's stats absolutely plummeted when he lost his starting LT, #1WR and #1TE. But if you could explain further, please do.


Anyways, back to Thremp: I apologize for the way I phrased the stat comparison between Brady and Manning. I didn't really think about it at the time and it certainly would give a slightly wrong impression. Although Manning has only been as far ahead as Brady is comparatively in one year from the past 6.

And I think we're looking at the initial question differently. If you want to argue that Manning has put together better numbers over the course of his career, I certainly can't go against that much. He has.

But when you say things like 'Brady's season is an exception and an outlier", well, that makes me think you're not listening to my reasoning. This is the first year Brady has had a supporting cast the likes of which Manning has had his entire career. To compare Brady's stats this year to his previous seasons and say that they are an anamoly and will fall back to earth doesn't make much sense. If the Pats keep this offense together, there's no reason to think they won't be just as good next year. And if they let half this offense go and give Brady what he had to work with from 2001-2006, well, there's no reason to think he'll be able to repeat this years performance.


"I'm sure you can understand how 12 games does not prove who is a better QB as compared to the 60 before it?"

It's not sample size bias. You can't say that Peyton is better because his stats have been better 6 of the past 7 seasons, when 6 of the past 7 seasons he's been working with a better unit. You just can't do it.

Oh, and it's 13 games now, not 12, but thats being picky. Of course you wouldn't know anything about that.

[Thremp]

Well this is just fairly silly IMO.

The system most definitely affects a quarterbacks play and his stats. I should have included this in my original statement, though I was more or less just trying to make the point that offensive surroundings affect a QB's stats, not defensive ones. Anyways, to say the system affects a QB more than his surrounding players? At an NFL level? That's primarily saying that a head coach and offensive co-ordinator have more to do with a QB's stats than the other 10 players on the field. It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who follows the NFL closely could think that. In fact, you don't even need to look very far. Peyton's stats absolutely plummeted when he lost his starting LT, #1WR and #1TE. But if you could explain further, please do.


Anyways, back to Thremp: I apologize for the way I phrased the stat comparison between Brady and Manning. I didn't really think about it at the time and it certainly would give a slightly wrong impression. Although Manning has only been as far ahead as Brady is comparatively in one year from the past 6.

And I think we're looking at the initial question differently. If you want to argue that Manning has put together better numbers over the course of his career, I certainly can't go against that much. He has.

But when you say things like 'Brady's season is an exception and an outlier", well, that makes me think you're not listening to my reasoning. This is the first year Brady has had a supporting cast the likes of which Manning has had his entire career. To compare Brady's stats this year to his previous seasons and say that they are an anamoly and will fall back to earth doesn't make much sense. If the Pats keep this offense together, there's no reason to think they won't be just as good next year. And if they let half this offense go and give Brady what he had to work with from 2001-2006, well, there's no reason to think he'll be able to repeat this years performance.


"I'm sure you can understand how 12 games does not prove who is a better QB as compared to the 60 before it?"

It's not sample size bias. You can't say that Peyton is better because his stats have been better 6 of the past 7 seasons, when 6 of the past 7 seasons he's been working with a better unit. You just can't do it.

Oh, and it's 13 games now, not 12, but thats being picky. Of course you wouldn't know anything about that.

Yawn. You have no concept of sample size or systems it seems. You have not addressed stat padding either.

[swede96]

LOL at anyone thinking Brady > Peyton. Basically retarded.

I'm sorry...refresh my memory...whos the #1 team? Did the Pats and Colts play yet this year? Who won that?