[helicopter23]

How can poker be seen as a skill and not luck when the best players in the world lose over long periods of time.

[SBR Lou]

Variance? Bankroll management? Define 'best players' - if it's the ones you see on TV, they're merely portrayed as such and regarded by many of the most successful cash game players as fish. Most of these young tournament stars ran extremely hot, and are now broke. There are still successful cash game pro's grinding out livings or playing high stakes and doing well. It's all about being able to drop down limits when you're not running well.

[helicopter23]

I'm probally still up between 40k-50k. However lately bad beat after bad beat. I just play a $119 sit n go at pokerstars and had 1/2 the chips with 3 people left (top 2 get paid). I lost with kk against aj, pocket 10's against poket 4's and A10 against A6 (blinds were 200 400) and came third.

These players who think there are some type of geniuses at poker should be stoned.

I would rather bet sports and continue to know I'm gonna lose in the long run!

[SBR Lou]

I hear ya, beats suck. The other day my friend was playing on a poker site, he was dealt KJh, basically it became a big three-handed pot where he flopped a flushdraw. Well, he hits his flush on the turn, everyone goes all in.... My friend loses with a King hi flush, the second bettor loses with pocket Aces, and the third guy wins by rivering a straight flush.

[fearless]

My father is no where near the best in the world and he wins around 95% of the time. He's been a pro for about twenty years now. He's a machine and his win % never drops.

[Skankdog]

helicopter,
I have been on both sides of this arguement. I will play against a guy who thinks he is lucky anytime-anywhere. There is luck involved especially in tournaments, but true cash games comes down to skill and playing the players. Being bumped out of a tournament or losing 10 dimes on one hand will make you rething the luck part.LOL

[WileOut]

I don't trust any card dealer that I can't physically see shuffle the cards. That rules out online poker for me.

[Skankdog]

WileOut,
AMen Brother! Online Poker is not real poker. I have been playing for years and I refuse even to this day to play online. It is a bad beat if you ask me.

[jjgold]

Poker is the same game of chance as blackjack or craps, it is being at the right place at the right time. Poker is pure luck.

[datadriven]

heads up, medium term structure JJ, name the stakes

[LVHerbie]

The best hand of poker I ever played...This was a double shoot-out where the top two got seats to the 215 weekly tourney and third gets $35 dollars...

PokerStars Game #6593679481: Tournament #33279439, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round II, Level V (75/150) - 2006/10/11 - 02:31:11 (ET)
Table '33279439 1' 8-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 3: HerbieX101 (2620 in chips)
Seat 4: bbxprs (3590 in chips)
Seat 8: doctor tilt (5790 in chips)
bbxprs: posts small blind 75
doctor tilt: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HerbieX101 [2d 7h]
HerbieX101: raises 300 to 450
bbxprs: folds
doctor tilt: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Td Th 2s]
doctor tilt: checks
HerbieX101: bets 750
doctor tilt: raises 750 to 1500
HerbieX101: raises 670 to 2170 and is all-in
doctor tilt: calls 670
*** TURN *** [Td Th 2s] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [Td Th 2s 2h] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
doctor tilt: shows [Kd Tc] (a full house, Tens full of Deuces)
HerbieX101: shows [2d 7h] (four of a kind, Deuces)
HerbieX101 collected 5315 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5315 | Rake 0
Board [Td Th 2s 2h 2c]
Seat 3: HerbieX101 (button) showed [2d 7h] and won (5315) with four of a kind, Deuces
Seat 4: bbxprs (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: doctor tilt (big blind) showed [Kd Tc] and lost with a full house, Tens full of Deuces

[jjgold]

If Poker was a pro sport guys like Ivy would be at almost every final table of tourneys even with 200 players in it

He is no where to be found in most

[mockingboy]

You are an idiot JJ-

You have to recognize that Poker isn't like sportsbetting. In Sportsbetting you win or lose one game.

In Poker you can win 10 hands in a row and lose 1 hand, and be down significant sums of money.

That is why it is a game of skill. The best hand vs. worst hand preflop is still only 87% favorite AA vs. 27o.

I will play you HU with a legit blind structure any time you want.

Oh, and for everyone that think Mike Matusow and Phil Ivey are the best players in the world, they may be great Tournement players but far more guys winning more money in cash games than them.

TOurney players are different than cash players.

[20Four7]

You know the #1 thing that poker players despise right? Bad fukkin beat stories...

I belong to Bad Beats Anonymous and have been bad beat free for over a year now. It doesn't mean it stops happening I just refuse to listen to it or talk about it.

[mockingboy]

Everyone gets bad beat, its part of playing Poker but ITS ALSO PART OF BEING A WINNING PLAYER. For every time someone calls you down to the river and hits a miracle gut shot, there are 8 other times they call you down and fold on the river when they don't win.

You have to recognize you, in the long run, will make more by someone chasing you than lose if you play solidly...its all part of the game.

[B1GER1C828]

good players can also be defined the way they take bad beats. if they realize they've done it 2 some1 b4 and realize thats part of the game then their good players, if they take it bad and cant believe it, they r bad players. good instinct helps make good players but thats only cuz they've played for 20 years usually. if u look at ranks on OPR guy is up 433k in torunament play, he aint just plain lucky, hes a great player.

[mockingboy]

Matusow has a high level of comprehending the table dynamics in tournament poker, he just doesn't always apply his skill instead allowing his emotions to get the better of him.

Ivey is one of the most successful cash game players around, he hasn't even been playing many tournaments at all, because there is more money to be made in the high limit games he sits in.

True, I heard he filed $26 million in income last year...the majority is not from tourneys

[jjgold]

Most pro poker players are broke too

[jolub]

That's why they call it gambling.