[gridironguy]

Betting with bookies is illegal and flying in and out of Vegas, no matter where you are flying from, gets very expensive and cuts into your bottom-line too much. Trust me on this -- I did it some years ago.

Bet your games online and then pay your taxes on your winnings. You'll be happy you did.

ADDING: Vegas sportsbooks are afraid of action since they got buried in the 2005 football season. Most of them are owned by MGM-Mirage Properties or Harrah's, and if you bet anywhere near a dime at one property, they won't allow you to bet at the other properties. They will ask you if you're staying at the hotel, do you have a player's club card, etc. They make it difficult for sharps to get any real $$$ down.

And bookies won't pay you when you keep winning.

[mavs1978]

your playing with the wrong bookies.. there are some top notch guys who have no limit

[gridironguy]

Mavs, I dealt with 3 reputable bookies in the mid-90's, all 3 of them stopped taking my action halfway through the season, and they stiffed me.

Bookies love losing bettors, they will stiff you if you win too much. I was only winning about 55-56% of my games, but I was consistently winning. They stiffed me and I will never, ever use a local bookie again.

I will bet offshore and pay taxes on my winnings. Imo, it's the only way to go..

[LVHerbie]

Mavs, I dealt with 3 reputable bookies in the mid-90's, all 3 of them stopped taking my action halfway through the season, and they stiffed me.

They don't seem very reputable if they stiffed you in the end... But, I agree, offshores, if you're playing at the right place is probably going to almost always be safer...

[jjgold]

I thought some Vegas books take 5-10k on football whether college or pro?

[vanzack]

One correction; betting with a bookie is not illegal, being a bookie is illegal.

[MrX]

I believe the original post is a little misleading regarding the Vegas books. Counter limits for MLB sides are 5k for MGM (20c line but still sometimes the best number for a particular side). 3k for Harrahs properties (15c line but often the best number for an underdog). 4k for Station Casinos. Coast does not have a specific limit and seems willing to take action at least into 5 figures. Other notables: Leroys 3k, Strat 3k (8cent line), Hilton 3k, Palms 2k, Wynn 3k.

All of these limits (accept maybe bigger bets at the coast) will be given even without a player's card, and some will take more with a card. As far as I know, all of these places will let you rebet after they move the line, if you're so inclined.

I only play sides, but totals I think are usually around 1k limits. I'd be shocked if most of these places don't have higher limits on foots than bases.

[gridironguy]

I thought some Vegas books take 5-10k on football whether college or pro?

Not anymore, JJ. The moment they sense that you have some abilities/knowledge, they quickly back you off and lower your limits before you can even get down.

Post 2005, Vegas has turned into a bunch of cowards only looking for recreational action.

If a Rec player wants to waste his time and money flying in and out of Vegas, be my guest. I am just trying to save the serious players some time, because they will be very disappointed at the "New" Vegas.

[gridironguy]

Guys, I went there for 7 straight years, every week of the football season between sept and nov. That's 13-14 times a yrs. I'm giving you the facts.

[gridironguy]

One correction; betting with a bookie is not illegal, being a bookie is illegal.

Van, if a bookie ring gets busted (happens more often than offshore rings getting busted), then you wana bet that as a client who has been paid big that you won't be on a DOJ list of people to talk to?

Heck yeah they'll talk to you, and so will the IRS.

Everyone pay their taxes and the gov't will be happy and leave us all alone.

Tax evasion is really bad..

[donnyguru]

Wasn't 2005 the year "squares" got fat because favorites hit something like 58%? Although I know most sharps probably got paid too, your so-called recreational player was the reason for the bloodbath. Changing your business model based on a one year aberration is a bad idea regardless of whether you are the corner bookie or Harrahs.

A cheap flight to Vegas is starting to look attractive, what with their free and instant withdrawals. But we shall see what the online books have cooking very soon.

[gridironguy]

Yes Donny, 58% of NFL favs covered in 2005 and college football played very true to form as well. Squares made a killing and crushed the books.

In the fall of 2006, the books began the football season with new rules, cutting out 1/2 pt selling and lowering limits for "sharper" players. I am only a 55% lifetime bettor/capper, and they lowered my limits considerably.

Complete BS.

[vanzack]

Van, if a bookie ring gets busted (happens more often than offshore rings getting busted), then you wana bet that as a client who has been paid big that you won't be on a DOJ list of people to talk to?

Heck yeah they'll talk to you, and so will the IRS.

Everyone pay their taxes and the gov't will be happy and leave us all alone.

Tax evasion is really bad..

Of course tax evasion is a crime, but that is not what you said in your original post, you said betting with a bookie is illegal - and it is not.

Your train of thought is like telling me that selling wine at a restaurant is illegal, and when I say it is not, you tell me that if the owner doesnt pay his taxes he will be caught for tax evasion and that is bad.

Just to clarify, tax evasion is a crime, but that has nothing to do with the legal activity of betting with a bookie.

[gridironguy]

Of course tax evasion is a crime, but that is not what you said in your original post, you said betting with a bookie is illegal - and it is not.

Your train of thought is like telling me that selling wine at a restaurant is illegal, and when I say it is not, you tell me that if the owner doesnt pay his taxes he will be caught for tax evasion and that is bad.

Just to clarify, tax evasion is a crime, but that has nothing to do with the legal activity of betting with a bookie.

I understand what you're saying, Vanzack. Let me rephrase:

While betting with a bookie is not illegal, I believe it's wise to pay taxes on the winnings because if that particular bookie you're using gets popped by the DOJ, then there's a decent chance he'll give out the names of his bigger clients.

Also, there's a much, much better chance that a bookie will get popped over an offshore book.

Whichever method people choose, offshore, vegas, or bookie, I strongly advise paying taxes on the winnings..

[MrX]

Not anymore, JJ. The moment they sense that you have some abilities/knowledge, they quickly back you off and lower your limits before you can even get down.

Call me crazy but I'd be absolutely shocked if anyone, no matter how sharp they appeared, had any trouble whatsoever getting down 10k on pro or college foots in Vegas.

I'm starting to think this thread is not exactly for real, so I'll leave it at that, and sign off. I just don't want any newcomers thinking they're gonna get heat when they come to Vegas to make a $700 bet.

[gridironguy]

I'm starting to think this thread is not exactly for real, so I'll leave it at that, and sign off. I just don't want any newcomers thinking they're gonna get heat when they come to Vegas to make a $700 bet.

I went to Vegas 13-14 times every fall from 1999-2006. 7 yrs on the calendar, 8 football seasons. After the thrashing that Vegas books took in 2005, they changed their tune entirely in 2006.

If you don't believe me, try going into ANY Vegas strip sportsbook and try and get down $1100 on a College Football total. They might take it once or twice -- but the moment they see you cash one of those tickets and you try to bet totals again, they'll ask you if you're staying at their property for the night or two, then they'll ask you if you have a player's club card. If you say no, they'll limit you to about $220 on the totals bet.

Try this in Sept, then come back into this thread and let us know your experiences. If you're a losing bettor like 95% of people are, they'll take your action all day. If you are in the 5% of winners like me, they'll turn your ass away.

I am living proof of this, and quite a few others on other sports boards have vouched that what I'm saying is true.

[MrX]

1k limits on college totals do not surprise me, although I'm sure the Coast and some others would take significantly more.

Asking for a player's card on limit-bets is standard as well. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just give it to them. Many places will even give you some comp value (to your player's card) on your sports bets.

I will be very surprised if the counter limits for football sides are less than $5k at MGM properties and less than $3k at Harrah's properties since they take these bets on MLB sides with lower vig and fewer recreational bettors.

[gridironguy]

MrX, the only place that gave me any decent comps was Caesar's. I took them for 6 grand in 2005 and they welcomed me back in 2006. They probably thought I'd give my 6 grand back, but as it were I took another 3.5 grand from them in 2006.

Aside from Caesar's, the Palms, and the LV Hilton, every other place in Vegas SUCKED to bet at. Note that the Palms and the LV Hilton are quite a bit off the strip.

Anyhow I opened a Player's Club card at Caesar's, and it was good at any Harrah's property. The Paris (crappy sportsbook) and Bally's (another crappy one) for like scared little children when it came to taking my Totals bets. They would not accept more than $220 because I did not have, and I quote, "Slot play or Table play on my Harrah's Player club card".

They wanted to know that I was gambling in the casino on slots or table games before they would take more than $220 on a college total from me.

Absolute BS.

[MrX]

MrX, the only place that gave me any decent comps was Caesar's. I took them for 6 grand in 2005 and they welcomed me back in 2006. They probably thought I'd give my 6 grand back, but as it were I took another 3.5 grand from them in 2006.

Aside from Caesar's, the Palms, and the LV Hilton, every other place in Vegas SUCKED to bet at. Note that the Palms and the LV Hilton are quite a bit off the strip.

Anyhow I opened a Player's Club card at Caesar's, and it was good at any Harrah's property. The Paris (crappy sportsbook) and Bally's (another crappy one) for like scared little children when it came to taking my Totals bets. They would not accept more than $220 because I did not have, and I quote, "Slot play or Table play on my Harrah's Player club card".

They wanted to know that I was gambling in the casino on slots or table games before they would take more than $220 on a college total from me.

Wow, that is awful. I know some of these places are ridiculous about sweating sportsbook action compared to what they make in the casino (don't get me started about the Wynn) but $220? They should be embarrassed.

I have a diamond card so I guess I get the benefit of the doubt at the Harrah's properties.

Coast properties are great, though. Off the strip, obviously, but I don't see why that's a big problem. Gold coast is an easy walk from Ceasar's. They seem to take bigger bets than anyone, and they don't pull any funny stuff. Also, they give you a little comp (very little, but you'll get some free buffets if you're betting big).

Station's are good books, also, but you're right, the strip books really have become pretty weak. Downtown is bad, too, but that's more understandable.

I'll still stick to my main assertion: It's not that hard to get down 10k on football sides in Vegas. Totals may well be a different matter.

[ms61853]

I am just trying to save the serious players some time, because they will be very disappointed at the "New" Vegas.

I've been disappointed in the new Vegas for quite a while for reasons that go beyond sports betting. It's just a greedy corporate tourist trap now. I wished the mob still ran it.

[onetobet]

Vegas limits
http://www.casinogaming.com/bettingi...portsbook.html

[ShamsWoof10]

Vegas limits
http://www.casinogaming.com/bettingi...portsbook.html

thanks for the link...

OK thanks.. to the post below...

[Cyclone]

The information on that Vegas limits link is old. For example, the Starsdust is closed.

[Cyclone]

The information on that Vegas limits link is old. For example, the Stardust is closed.

[gridironguy]

Vegas limits
http://www.casinogaming.com/bettingi...portsbook.html

Not only is the link old, it is entirely incorrect.

Vegas books will limit anyone that they perceive as even somewhat sharp.

They will take large bets all day from people they perceive as tourists and/or squares..

[MrX]

Yes, as far as MLB is concerned, that link is wrong all over the place (in both directions). I'd consider it useless.

[gridironguy]

I will tell you this much:

If you are betting onshore with a bookie, he sure as hell should not have your name or a phone number registered to your name...

Exactly.

If people won't listen to me, hopefully they'll listen to you, Sean. You're as knowledgeable a guy as there is on any internet sports board.

People don't seem to understand how serious the DOJ is about busting up bookie rings. When those rings get busted, the bookies will start talking to save their own asses through leniency by the DA's. When they start talking, guess whose names they're gonna give up? That's right, the top 25% of their clients who they pay out the most -- then the DOJ turns over those names to the IRS, and next thing you know you're getting audited..

[gridironguy]

I believe the original post is a little misleading regarding the Vegas books. Counter limits for MLB sides are 5k for MGM (20c line but still sometimes the best number for a particular side). 3k for Harrahs properties (15c line but often the best number for an underdog). 4k for Station Casinos. Coast does not have a specific limit and seems willing to take action at least into 5 figures. Other notables: Leroys 3k, Strat 3k (8cent line), Hilton 3k, Palms 2k, Wynn 3k.

All of these limits (accept maybe bigger bets at the coast) will be given even without a player's card, and some will take more with a card. As far as I know, all of these places will let you rebet after they move the line, if you're so inclined.

I only play sides, but totals I think are usually around 1k limits. I'd be shocked if most of these places don't have higher limits on foots than bases.

It looks like I was not the only person who you wrongfully disagreed with -- Las Vegas sports writer, Jeff Haney, did too.

If you are a SQUARE (ie, losing bettor) you can get down all you want. Those of us who are SHARPS (ie winning bettors) cannot.

Simple as that.

Too bad I'm not a square, but the Vegas books realized it pretty quickly.. I was taking their money every week.

[MrX]

Everything I've said here is fact.

That article was mostly factual as well.

You're the one taking a few anecdotes and applying them universally to Las Vegas.

So for anyone that's confused:

There are a lot of pathetic sportsbooks in Vegas that are there only as a courtesy and they don't want real action. There are a number of very good sportsbooks that will take decent action ($3k to >$10k on MLB sides) even from sharp bettors. At these books you don't need to demonstrate slot or table action.

Does Vegas compare to online as far as limits go? No. Does it have softer,slower-moving lines? Yes.

I'm not trying to get in some argument here, I'm just trying to tell people the truth. If you doubt me, come on over, I'll personally take you to the books that will take your bets. They won't be terrified of your sharpness. I promise.

[gridironguy]

There are a lot of pathetic sportsbooks in Vegas that are there only as a courtesy and they don't want real action.

They won't be terrified of your sharpness. I promise.

To your first point, that sums up just about every freaking sportsbook on the entire Vegas strip. Who the hell wants to fly in and then drive out to all of the off-strip casinos? The point should be convenience for in AND out-of-towners, alike.

To your second point, I'm not even that sharp, but the strip sportsbooks were acting like I was gonna take down their whole operation with a $1100 wager on a college total.

[DHJetsFan777]

gridironguy i know what you are saying, if you win a lot of money at vegas it would be wise to file your taxes.

however if you went to a casino in another country to gamble why would you file when you did everything with cash? if you get a lot of money then buy a diamond ring... or something expensive... so you don't have to carry that much money onto the plane. there is nothing the irs or the us can do about it...

and about the online offshore gambling... if you didn't provide any type of id like your drivers license or ss# to your bookie then there isn't much the irs or the us can do about it if they get busted. this is why you don't do echecks.

the only thing you have to worry about is depositing a lot of money on to your bank account. it will rise red flags and and the irs will want to know where that came from.

if you win in vegas FILE...
if you win in a casino out of the country FILE if you want to be honest...
as for offshore gambling online, the only thing you have to worry about is what you do with that money you won...

[MrX]

When did this turn into a tax-evasion thread?

[fearless]

however if you went to a casino in another country to gamble why would you file when you did everything with cash? if you get a lot of money then buy a diamond ring... or something expensive... so you don't have to carry that much money onto the plane. there is nothing the irs or the us can do about it...

I don't think that's true. I think that when you get off the plane in the USA the agents there can confiscate your money or other belongings if they think you obtained those things through illegal means. Didn't anyone read about the women who had like $70k confiscated from her because the feds thought it was suspicious (it was hidden in her shoe)?

[curious]

Wasn't 2005 the year "squares" got fat because favorites hit something like 58%? Although I know most sharps probably got paid too, your so-called recreational player was the reason for the bloodbath. Changing your business model based on a one year aberration is a bad idea regardless of whether you are the corner bookie or Harrahs.

A cheap flight to Vegas is starting to look attractive, what with their free and instant withdrawals. But we shall see what the online books have cooking very soon.

You don't understand the mindset of casino people if you think that "only" one year of paying out more winners than losers would not make them change the way they do things. Casino people are NOT risk takers. They only want action where they have a definitive edge. They view the gamblers' money as their money and get very upset if the gambler keeps any of it. I did some consulting to casino management a few years ago. Take how they treat blackjack players as an example. Every blackjack player is treated as a potential "21 cheat" which is the casino code for a card counter. Card counting isn't cheating, its using your brain to remember what cards you have seen. A blackjack table makes its profit based on hands dealt per hour. The fewer decks used and the deeper you deal into the deck, the more hands are dealt per hour and the more money the blackjack table makes. Using an eight deck shoe and dealing out only 6 decks the number of hands dealt per hour is abysmal. If I was running a casino, all my blackjack games would be single deck with all the cards dealt out. This gives the highest number of hands per hour possible, hence the most profit possible. The number of blackjack players who know what card counting is is probably 10%, the number who can actually do card counting is probably 10% of that, and the number who can do it well enough to hurt the casino is probably 10% of that. Or, 1/10th of 1%. Most card counters go broke because they overbet their bank. So, the casino, in order to protect themselves from a perceived, not a real threat, purposely treat ALL customers of the blackjack tables like criminals and purposely put in rules and conditions that greatly lower the profit per table per hour. It is quite easy to prove this mathematically. Yet, there is not ONE casino in North America that deals single deck blackjack with all the cards dealt out, even though that would give them the highest profits possible, because of their overwhelming fear that a few players might be skilled enough to win. It is ridiculous. But talking to casino people is like talking to a brick. Actually, I think a brick has more intelligence.

As a gag I had some t-shirts printed up one time that said "Jackblack WV Professional Blackjack Player's Association" and got some of my lady friends to go with me to casinos and sit down to play. We were playing low stakes and just having fun. You would have thought we came in there wearing masks with guns drawn. It was hysterical. We made up a ridiculous story about being "professional" blackjack players from Jackblack WV. LOL