[betplom]

That's why they're sprinting in a mass exodus out of this Buddha forsaken place. It's really become quite a problem. For every person that leaves, we only have about 1350 people from other much more wonderful countries that try to come in, and those are just the people who are trying to do it legally.

The great thing about this country is that you don't have to be an American if you don't want to! It's up to you! You can leave and forfeit your citizenship whenever you like, and you don't even have to thank any divine power. As a matter of fact, it is most likely that no divine power will assist you in any way.

The things you describe above are not unique to America, ( not that you said they were). Leaving a country, forfeiting citizenship, etc. etc. are available to persons in most other industrialized first world nations. A common phrase I hear alot is "only in America". I would say the things that are "only in America" are usually "everywhere else too". There are many Countries that have MORE freedom than the USA. America is not as free as it believes it is.

Of couse, I could be wrong, in which case - nevermind.

[isetcap]

The things you describe above are not unique to America, ( not that you said they were). Leaving a country, forfeiting citizenship, etc. etc. are available to persons in most other industrialized first world nations. A common phrase I hear alot is "only in America". I would say the things that are "only in America" are usually "everywhere else too". There are many Countries that have MORE freedom than the USA. America is not as free as it believes it is.

Of couse, I could be wrong, in which case - nevermind.

It depends on which freedoms you are referring to.

If you're speaking of economic freedom then I would say your case is not very solid. America has never known anything but a free market system and it can be argued that it has been wildly successful. There are few economies today that are more free market than the US and even fewer that are as productive as the US economy. I will stand by my claim that overall, America is the best place in the world to make money for the greatest number of people.

If you're speaking of social freedoms then you are most certainly correct, although it's not as bad as most perceive due to the fact that we have a free speech media that will always make the situation seem worse than it is. The world gains their understanding of America through this media and that paints a deceptive picture. People often whine about the lessening of civil liberties. The main reason they do is because they can, but the next reason is because it suits their personal or political agenda. These are often the same people that are shocked that it's possible for someone to buy a gun legally, or they're amazed that we would allow immigrants of a certain religion, or they simply can't understand how we can allow a woman to have domain over her own body, etc.

There are many factors creating this dynamic of diminishing social freedoms and I won't document them all but there are a couple that stand out.

Our country has a larger and more diverse social mix than any other on this planet. Religious and cultural differences and infringements exist on a much larger scale than anywhere else. Maintaining a satisfactory balance between differing ideologies and cultural practices versus individual freedoms will often create a necessity for social regulation on the part of a government. Homogenous societies with less population density need not be as concerned with regulating their population because to an overwhelming extent the people within their borders are all of similar mindsets.

Another factor is the age of our democracy. As a democracy ages, laws are enacted to make things better for the majority of the society it represents or to protect certain elements from social inequality (that's the ideal if not always reality). A law is very seldom removed once it makes its way into society. By their very nature, laws are nothing more than regulatory devices. Every law that is enacted and enforced is a removal of a society's freedom.

I suppose you can argue that it is bad for a democracy to be "less free" but the alternative is to be "more lawless". In many places it can work to be "more lawless" because the people in newer democracies were more recently in a more oppressive system. These people have less tendency to socially infringe as a result of their newer freedoms. Take for example the Czech Republic, a former communist state of which I am somewhat familiar and also one of my favorite places on Earth. They lived for decades in a system where they had very few freedoms and that was their way of life. Now that they have freedoms, they are not as likely to push the envelope as an American individual who has always existed in a democracy and has never truly known a life of oppression.

I would say without a doubt that the Czech Republic has more social freedom than America, and when I visit I think it is incredibly wonderful. My travels have shown me many places similar to CZ since communism was evicted. Everybody can drink whenever they want to (and many do), and there's no enforcement of prostitution, drugs, and gambling even if there are laws in place. But I also know that this level of freedom would have disastrous results in America.

As these young democracies develop, new generations will come along and they will push the boundaries of their freedoms to the point of abuse and eventually laws will be made. There will also be an outcry for economic stability and parity that will force the government in place to legislate social activity. It is a natural process driven by human nature, and democracy accomodates it fairly well. It's a balancing act that America has been performing for centuries now and I don't think we've performed poorly. I feel that I can still say what I want, and worship what I want, and go where I want, and be with who I want, and make money how I want, and leave when I want. In my pursuit of happiness and worth, I'm satisfied with that from my government; I'll take care of the rest.

[betplom]

Good writeup. I was referring to social freedoms and would agree with most of what you wrote.

At least you have travelled and seen that there is more than just one country on this planet. I too am somewhat of a traveller, but I'm always happy to be returning home to Canada.

My point was about Americans chanting the mantra of "only in America" and believing it - or do they?.

Another one is "American Dream" like people in Canada or Europe aren't interested in the same dream, it's hardly just the American dream, a more accurate term would be the "Human Dream".
You don't have to be in the US to achieve it. The northern border of the US isn't flooded with illegals from Canada, most Canadians are happy here and don't need or want to leave. I've met people who have left Canada for the US and returned. Our countries share history and are closely related but there are many differences too.

[isetcap]

Good writeup. I was referring to social freedoms and would agree with most of what you wrote.

At least you have travelled and seen that there is more than just one country on this planet. I too am somewhat of a traveller, but I'm always happy to be returning home to Canada.

My point was about Americans chanting the mantra of "only in America" and believing it - or do they?.

Another one is "American Dream" like people in Canada or Europe aren't interested in the same dream, it's hardly just the American dream, a more accurate term would be the "Human Dream".
You don't have to be in the US to achieve it. The northern border of the US isn't flooded with illegals from Canada, most Canadians are happy here and don't need or want to leave. I've met people who have left Canada for the US and returned. Our countries share history and are closely related but there are many differences too.

I think people only chant that mantra in some perverse nationalistic and patriotically ignorant fashion, although I can see the phrase being more accurate in representing some of the most negative things about American society.

Personally, I think the "American Dream" is slightly different than that of most countries in Europe (can't classify Canada as I don't have much experience there). America is a historical teenager and doesn't have a great deal of appreciation for things like tradition and cultural depth but we love change. I think there is also less time spent by the population simply contemplating life and natural beauty. Because of that it seems to me that the premium for the American Dream is economic wealth, whereas elsewhere in the world money seems to be slightly less important. I'm not saying that the dreams aren't similar, only that the slight differences make for a decidely different social environment.

Having said all that, I too find it very comforting when I arrive home from my travels. For all of its shortcomings, America is a wonderfully beautiful and diverse place that has a multitude of styles and cultures along with an enormous amount of power and potential. At the age of 30 I had nothing good to say about America and I couldn't wait to get out. Now I'm 35 and during the last 5 years I've spent extensive time in dozens of countries (fallen in love with a few of them) on multiple continents, and I can safely say that I'm OK with America now.

[tacomax]

Unbelievable...how much longer will these guys continue to try and steal people's money?...

How much was stolen in total, Miss Cleo?

[MartinBlank]

Pags is calculating the totals now Taco.

He will get back to this thread--wait, he can't. His thread view count just hit 4 million--he has fan mail to answer.

Ya know how it is being Pags and all, right?

[pags11]

martin,

how did that Notre Dame bet turn out for you last week? ouch!!!!!!!!!!! you are a dumbass!