[Justin7]

Luke M wrote to SBR, complaining that WagerWeb confiscated his balance:

The player and Wagerweb agree to most of the facts. The player deposited $5000, and collected a $1000 cash bonus, in addition to a $1500 free play bonus (which lost). The player placed a series of bets over a week, meeting his rollover and running his balance up to $11,793. The player asked for a withdrawal, and the book refused, claiming the player abused bonuses, and would have lost his entire deposit but for the bonus.

The first issue is: did the player "abuse" a bonus policy? Wagerweb provided convincing evidence that the player had already controlled an account that deposited $2000, and cashed out $4900. The evidence consisted of 4 separate IPs shared by the player and his prior account. Additionally, the player's story was inconsistent - he at first claimed he didn't know the other account holder, and later said it was a friend. Wagerweb caught the player when he attempted to open a 3rd account from a similar IP. In many instances, the player's 2 accounts logged on to the same IP within minutes of each other. The IP information was persuasive, and convinced me that these accounts were controlled by one person.

At the time the player signed up for the accounts, WagerWeb had rules in place for new accounts. Among them were "1 account per household" and "1 account per IP address". SBR concluded that the player attempted to defraud WagerWeb.

Note that this conclusion is different than the matter of "Players versus SportsInteraction.com". In that dispute, the players provided a credible explanation for sharing an IP address, and SIA did not have a rule against multiple accounts per IP.

Having concluded that this was a case of fraud, the next issue is: what can the book fairly do about it? In a clear case of fraud, we will give a book a wide latitude for resolving the problem. Wagerweb chose to cancel all bonuses, and methodically go through all wagers, canceling wagers (or parts of wagers) that he could not make if he did not collect the bonus.

In the player's case, he had bad luck. In his first day of betting, his last wager of the day was $2200 to win $2000, which won. However, his entire balance was already tied up. Without the bonus, he would only be able to risk $1200 to win $1090. The player's bad luck didn't end there - on the following day, he had a hot streak of second half basketball bets, again risking money that he didn't have. I spent an inordinate amount of time reviewing wagers and pestering WagerWeb for additional information, but I was able to conclude that without the initial bonus, the player's balance would have hit $0, and no other wagers would be permitted.

When a player attempts to defraud a sportsbook, the book can use ANY REASONABLE METHOD to adjust the balance. This could include canceling all wagers and refunding the deposits, or retroactively canceling the bonus and regrading all wagers based on the available balance, as was done here.

In summary, the player lost his entire balance without the bonus. WagerWeb fairly adjusted his balance based on canceled bonuses for player fraud.

[tacomax]

Probably the "right" ending (anything between having the full balance confiscated and having the deposit returned would have been within the bounds of reasonableness) but the reasoning behind it is quite possibly flawed.

Wagerweb didn't pay out on the basis that the player wouldn't have been able to get his balance up to $11K without the use of the bonus. But what if this wasn't the case? What if he started winning from day one and never made "use" of the bonus? Would Wagerweb have returned the full balance minus the value of the bonus?

In short, have they fitted the punishment to the wagering patterns of the crime? It would be a lot better if SBR and the books can come up with a definitive way of dealing with cases in the future.

Anyway, good work. LukeM sounded like a model citizen from his original post.

[luke m.]

My story never did change first of all because it is none of their business where my friend and I are employed at. The 4 IP addresses are the 3 different desktop pc's at work. Apparently each desktop has its own IP at my employer because I do not know how that works with several pc's at a job. The 4th IP would be my personal laptop. My friend accessed their account only to find out when their payout would be processed and deducted from their account. Yes both accounts were accessed within minutes only 5 to 10 times but only to get the tracking #, because that is normally the time that we were together. No wagers were ever placed on my friends account after I opened my account. Next my account was opened the same day that the funds were deducted from my friends account. So these monies were not used to open my account. Next, my friend emailed me the promotion that he used on his account and Charlie who opened my account was ok with it. Charlie is the same guy who forfeited my balance. My account would have never zeroed out even if the bonus was deducted. I sent not only a copy of my drivers license to Wagerweb but also a copy of my Social Security card to verify my identity. My friend also sent a copy of their drivers license. My friend was also willing to get a letter from their bank to verify that the check had been deposited and cleared. The third person who joined online was another employee and friend that was going to use the same promotion but his account was never funded because when we told him to call Charlie to get the deposit instructions, Charlie would not allow him to make a deposit. That is when my payout request by Fed ex were cancelled. Charlie knew that the promotion that I used was from a friend and he honored it. After I won then things all of a sudden became fraud.

[Justin7]

Tacomax,

You make valid points. Under U.S. law, the victim of a fraud can choose between different remedies. They can rescind everything (in this case, that would include the first account which won as well). They could try to "repair the fraud" as was done here. In most cases, the fraud victim will choose whatever is best for them.

Luke -

Your work status became relevant the moment you said you bet from work. WagerWeb had you betting from your "work IP" on 10 consecutive days. You and your friend logged on at 10pm, when your work site was supposedly closed at 6pm (at least for the receptionist, who was one of the accounts).They asked for proof of your work schedule, which you refused to give. I didn't think it was necessary to pursue that though - the totality of everything else presented was convincing.

[luke m.]

Payouts were deducted from my account and put in a pending tracking # status. Things all of a sudden changed when the 3rd person opened online and used the same email promotion to open his account because Charlie thought we were a syndicate, and that is when all of my monies were forfeited. Yes, we made wagers for each other but who doesnt lay off action offshore for their friends. We do not live together, so we have different addresses, and there was more than one IP address. He opened my account and allowed me to use the forwarded email that my friend used. It only became a problem when I also won, and then a third person tried to use the same email promotion.

[luke m.]

Justin,
I made up that employer because they are just around the block from me. Charlie was going to call and try to get us fired for gambling at work. He said he called and that proves that he was going to ask questions from my employer. A book has no business asking a client where they work, if their married, and how many kids they have!

[tacomax]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Tacomax,

You make valid points. Under U.S. law, the victim of a fraud can choose between different remedies. They can rescind everything (in this case, that would include the first account which won as well). They could try to "repair the fraud" as was done here. In most cases, the fraud victim will choose whatever is best for them.

OK, I'll concede on that one. Thinking about it again, giving a definitive way of resolving cases like this would still give the player a way to take advantage by specifically minimising any punishment they would get if caught.

Originally Posted by Justin7

Your work status became relevant the moment you said you bet from work. WagerWeb had you betting from your "work IP" on 10 consecutive days. You and your friend logged on at 10pm, when your work site was supposedly closed at 6pm (at least for the receptionist, who was one of the accounts).They asked for proof of your work schedule, which you refused to give. I didn't think it was necessary to pursue that though - the totality of everything else presented was convincing.

Luke - I'd leave it if I were you. SBR are a lot more player friendly that other sites. If they're not going to rule in your favour, you're pretty much screwed. The more you open your mouth, the more Justin comes along and makes you look like a liar. And if you have been proven to be a liar then no-one is going to believe a word you say.

[luke m.]

Justin, I emailed you a copy of that promotion. Charlie knew that promotion was forwarded to me by my friend and he honored it. If he honors it then he should stand by his decision. Right or Wrong? He only had a problem when I forwarded it to another friend who tried to use it after my friend and I had won and we were cashing out after complying with the stipulations.

[luke m.]

Charlie honored this email promotion for me knowing that my friend had previously signed up using it. Charlie's name is on the email as new account rep., and he opened my account over the phone.

[luke m.]

Justin, I thank you for your time, effort, and quick response but I do discourage people from using Wagerweb. This was wrong by Charlie, new account rep. and fraud control manager, honoring the promotion knowingly that it was forwarded to me by my friend.

[gotsteam]

Originally Posted by luke m.

Justin,
I made up that employer because they are just around the block from me. Charlie was going to call and try to get us fired for gambling at work. He said he called and that proves that he was going to ask questions from my employer. A book has no business asking a client where they work, if their married, and how many kids they have!

Bottom line.

You and your group cheated/broke the books rules.

You lied to them about things.

YOU GOT CAUGHT

They should do this to ALL cheaters and shot takers

[luke m.]

How could you say being up front with the forwarded emails was not being honest. When I signed up he asked me to email the promotion to him. He saw where it had been forwarded to me by my friend and he honored it. He didnt have a problem until the 3rd person tried it, and he penalized me.

[Catsfan]

I've been playing at WagerWeb for about two years. I have never had any problems with them. It's obvious that Luke and his friends were cheating. They took a chance and got caught. Now they have to pay the consequences.

[luke m.]

Catsfan, what is cheating about this? Isnt each individual entitled to a bonus if the book honors it? Is it cheating if you make bets for other people?

[Santo]

The answer to the second part of your question is widely accepted to be yes - both in the online climate, and in Las Vegas.

[colt29]

sounds like it's time to put in a double shift.

[Dark Horse]

Sounds like a very indepth investigation by Justin7, and a good conclusion. Enough already about the cheat who got caught.

Rule number one not to get f*cked by a book: Don't f*ck with the book.

[DrSlamm]

once a book gives the bonus they give up all chances at calling fraud.. note to books.. stop giving out bonus's for signup. there is a lot better ways to attract and keep customers that are a lot less likely to get you attacked by bonus hunters / fraudulent users

[gotsteam]

Originally Posted by luke m.

Catsfan, what is cheating about this? Isnt each individual entitled to a bonus if the book honors it? Is it cheating if you make bets for other people?

Ya right, thats like saying what is wrong with applying for welfare or unemployment. If the government gives it to you, what the hell it is free money. So what if you are working.
If they want to give it to you, thats their problem

Cheaters should NEVER prosper

[jjgold]

Books just get rid of bonuses, real simple

[BigDog]

Originally Posted by gotsteam

Bottom line.

You and your group cheated/broke the books rules.

You lied to them about things.

YOU GOT CAUGHT

They should do this to ALL cheaters and shot takers

PERFECTLY SAID!!!

Hey Justin,GREAT work! You really dug down deep into this problem and came up with the right conclusion....SBR is the best!

[increasedodds]

Glad this was reviewed and that Wagerweb came out legit.

Wagerweb has always treated me fairly and during football seasons I have held mid 5 figure balances there without any type of problem. They've paid for a good 10 years and promptly - usually same day neteller or 2 day fedex or 2-3 day wire. I think they were the 2nd book I ever used.

I've never had a dispute with wagerweb and I routinely accept their 20 or 30% bonuses, occasional free 1/2 pts, .05% bonus per bet, etc.

Nothing makes me laugh harder than when someone dealing with $5000 is too dumb to get his act together and get separate IP addresses!!! It is not hard to wager at a book from more than one IP.

If you are gonna whore bonuses, be invisible.

-Sean

[increasedodds]

I do have one question though... When account 2 signed up, did it sign up from the same IP as account 1? If so, that is a poor job by Wagerweb to give the bonus and then have problems later. Wagerweb reviews bonuses closely so if it was the same IP at sign up, that makes it a little different.

Sean

[luke m.]

The 2nd account, which was mine was opened up over the phone with Charlie. I explained to him that I was using a bonus promotional code that account #1 used. Charlie was fine with that and asked me to forward him the email, and I did. He said that account #1 would not get a referral bonus but he would honor this email promotion for me. He knew we were friends. The problem came when a 3rd person tried to open up an account with the same email promotional bonus code. When the 3rd person signed up, and called Charlie to ask for the same bonus after I had requested a payout and in pending status, thats when everything was all of a sudden considered fraud.

[mapletree]

I have been playing with wagerweb over + 4 years, never have a problem. Wagerweb is a solid book. Paid very fast with bank wire within 2 days. Sorry to hear you have a problem with them bro.

[increasedodds]

Charlie is usually a stand up guy. SBR, did Charlie agree that he okayed the first 2 accounts knowing these guys were friends?

Every time Charlie has ever told me something or made me an offer, he has held up his end of the bargain.

Sean

[luke m.]

Yes, Charlie opened my account verbally talking to me over the phone. The email that I sent to him was forwarded to me by account #1 friend, then I forwarded it to Charlie.

[increasedodds]

SBR, it's problematic if Wagerweb knew these guys were friends and still offered the bonuses...

Can luke come up with email proof and headers showing WW knew they were friends and still gave them the bonuses?

IF so I think WW should pay....

Sean

[Doug]

plus the other disputes are unresolved.

Luke could have done this without the ISP matches, so WW wins this battle.

Instinct tells me they are getting desperate.

Lets see how the others go, in particular Tate.

[andywend]

Why did WagerWeb wait until Luke's withdrawal request before complaining about the bonus abuse?

If Luke lost that one particular game and lost all the money in his account, its a pretty safe bet that WagerWeb would have accepted additional deposits from him.

When a book accepts deposits easily but then tries to get out of processing withdrawals, I am always skeptical.

While some sort of adjustment should be made due to the bonus abuse, the confiscation of his entire balance should make everyone leery about dealing with WagerWeb.

[Justin7]

Guys - go back and read my opinion.

Luke M told Wagerweb he didn't know who the other accounts were initially. The promotional email was sent out to nearly 3,000 accounts, and nothing suggested that Wagerweb knew the accounts were related when they were opened.

IncreasedOdds wrote:
I do have one question though... When account 2 signed up, did it sign up from the same IP as account 1? If so, that is a poor job by Wagerweb to give the bonus and then have problems later. Wagerweb reviews bonuses closely so if it was the same IP at sign up, that makes it a little different."

Sean -
The rules were clear. Only 1 account per household, and 1 per IP. SBR concluded it was a clear case of player fraud.

What is a person, company or sportsbook's obligation to a fraudulent party to prevent a fraud? The law is clear - NOTHING. If US Contract law would not require Wagerweb to search IPs for duplicate addresses, we are not about to require this. It may be a good idea for sportsbooks to do this, but a book's failure to take "extraordinary fraud prevention methods" does not excuse a player for attempting to commit fraud.

Realize, some of these sportsbooks take millions of bets in a day. I have spoken to managers at "A" rated sportsbooks, and if they do not have the resources to search every wager for duplicate IPs, you certainly can't expect the smaller ones to. It is wishful thinking, but not practical.

[luke m.]

Ok, if this email was only sent out to 3000 people, and I wasnt on that list, why did he honor the bonus for me? It was because I forwarded the promotion by email to him which was forwarded to me by account #1 friend. How would I have ever known about the special promotion without having friend #1 recieving it. The only thing I lied to Wagerweb about was where we worked because that is none of their business. Is everyone obligated by a book to tell them who their employer is?

[Ganchrow]

Originally Posted by Justin7

some of these sportsbooks take millions of bets in a day.... they do not have the resources to search every wager for duplicate IPs,

Then these books apparently have some serious problems with technology.

Give me 90 seconds and I'll write a program to perform these checks on a decade-old PC in 15 minutes.

Books may not want to run these checks (and given the fact that they stand to benefit tremendously from delaying identification of those players attempting to defraud them, why would they?) but a book's claim that it lacks the resources to do so is simply preposterous and indicative of either staggering ignorance or self-serving mendacity.

[Justin7]

Ganchrow -

How do you run these checks? Real-time as the bets come in? Once a day, checking all bets?

You still have an X^2 function as your past bet dataset grows. This is an extra problem for fraud prevention that books don't want to deal with.

On the other hand, if you do an IP check when a player requests a withdrawal, there is a lot less checking. It would be nice if they could do more, but checking for IPs during withdrawal is the status quo for the industry.

The whole IP check is a further waste when you consider that the best bonus guys will never get caught by that.

[Doug]

Realize, some of these sportsbooks take millions of bets in a day

........................................ ........................................ ...

they do ?