[Bill Dozer]

A few years ago the "professional" sports bettor could have made a pretty good argument that he was better off without Pinnacle than with. Pinnacle booked to all the sharp US sports bettors and had the best representation of a true market. Any opinion from them was instantly used by bettors to spank another book. Pinnacle was so good at what they did that they tightened up the lines for the whole market, handcuffing many linesmen reduced to playing follow-the-Pinnacle.

Many day-traders and scalpers were born from Pinny University, affecting what other books could offer. A lot of the rules against steam were first used to combat bettors loading up on syndicate plays but for some books, it eventually applied to four 2 cent line moves at Pinnacle. 8 cents of "steam"!?

You could blame Pinnacle for Wal-marting but we probably should blame the field for not keeping up.

At the same time smaller and less experienced books were getting beat right out of business, (call it the affect of a monopoly or thinning the weak from the herd) the sportsbook was making sports betting look like a skill trade. Watching the dynamic lines for college hoops on a Saturday was really a thing of beauty. It was a far cry from the images portrayed by politicians of corner bookies collecting the juice as bettors beat each other into poverty. It looked like it belonged on Datek.com.

Today, players are surely worse off for losing one of the industry leaders. It will be interesting to see how the other bookmakers react including CRIS who is the clear #1 now for US sports.

We talked to 3 sportsbooks considering moving to reduced vig since the announcement. There will be a lot more low juice promos, especially since books don't have to look like they are committing to a new model. There will be a bigger margin for bookmaker error.

Players won't get that consistent high limit -105 but will there be more books offering a full 1.5 NBA points off another?

Could three new opinionated options at -107s be better than one -105? Will there be a fight for baseball action?

[turnip]

Nice post

it's certainly not going to be boring in the industry these next few weeks...

[Wheell]

I think the big question is how much of this money flows into matchbook. It might create a world where the matchbook lean is what matters, at least on gameday.

[onlooker]

Thats a good way of looking at things Bill. It would be nice to see some of our A rated books offer low juice. Thats one of the best things Pinnacle offered. That and the selling of points.

Its going to be interesting to see what comes about in the following weeks/months. Baseball season should be a interesting one now.

[Bill Dozer]

Thats a good way of looking at things Bill. It would be nice to see some of our A rated books offer low juice. Thats one of the best things Pinnacle offered. That and the selling of points.

Its going to be interesting to see what comes about in the following weeks/months. Baseball season should be a interesting one now.

Right, I think all of the point-sellers are out now? Everyone should have this anyways, even before Pinnacle left. With the ability to sell points with any size margin you want it's a no-brainer. Free money?

[Bill Dozer]

I think the big question is how much of this money flows into matchbook. It might create a world where the matchbook lean is what matters, at least on gameday.

They certainly should be able to do more but unless limits increase they may not capitalize on it. WSEX seems to be going for the sharps pretty hard. They have a nice headstart with no-rake poker. 20% to Pinnacle clients is aggressive.

[Dark Horse]

Watching the dynamic lines for college hoops on a Saturday was really a thing of beauty. It was a far cry from the images portrayed by politicians of corner bookies collecting the juice as bettors beat each other into poverty. It looked like it belonged on Datek.com.

Poetic! I'm feeling it.

But out of reach of nursery rhymes such as:
'You click the mouse, you lose your house."

[CA_Bettor06]

Bill do you expect to get Pinnacle affiliate commissions paid on time? They are suppose to pay affiliates right after the Super Bowl. I just hope they don't go under or use all their money paying bettors and have nothing left for affiliates.

Plus, if Pinnacle stops servicing US accounts how do we know all the other A rated books won't follow? When a market leader exits a market it's a major red flag to smaller players that remain. I'm sure they did their homework before making this move. Are the remaining books rejoicing or are they realizing they are going down with the ship.

I'm glad I visited my relatives in Canada last October and moved all my accounts up there. I'm sure of US money has flowed to CAN and will continue to do so. It will be interesting to see if the same profits can be made for scalpers/arbers with Pinnacle now. We'll know soon enough. Never a dull moment.

[BAUS]

Watching the dynamic lines for college hoops on a Saturday was really a thing of beauty. It was a far cry from the images portrayed by politicians of corner bookies collecting the juice as bettors beat each other into poverty. It looked like it belonged on Datek.com.

Good post Bill. It is so true about the Saturday dynamic lines.....the dynamic lines as we have known it are probably forever changed.

There really is a huge opportunity for someone to duplicate the dynamic lines business model....CRIS?? WSEX??

BAUS

[Jay Edgar]

Plus, if Pinnacle stops servicing US accounts how do we know all the other A rated books won't follow? When a market leader exits a market it's a major red flag to smaller players that remain. I'm sure they did their homework before making this move. Are the remaining books rejoicing or are they realizing they are going down with the ship.

That's the question.

Nobody who knows anything is saying.

Everyone who is chattering appears to know nothing.

Those who hold themselves out as being informed about the industry --people such as Mr. Dozer -- haven't shed any light that I have seen.

The lack of insight or even informed speculation is alarming, but I suppose not surprising.

[Bill Dozer]

Bill do you expect to get Pinnacle affiliate commissions paid on time? They are suppose to pay affiliates right after the Super Bowl. I just hope they don't go under or use all their money paying bettors and have nothing left for affiliates.

There is no reason why they wouldn't honor whatever agreement you have with them. Pinnacle is not going to go under.

Plus, if Pinnacle stops servicing US accounts how do we know all the other A rated books won't follow? When a market leader exits a market it's a major red flag to smaller players that remain. I'm sure they did their homework before making this move. Are the remaining books rejoicing or are they realizing they are going down with the ship.

We don't. But, Pinnacle didn't leave the market because their wasn't a demand or because it wasn't profitable. Where there is a demand, there will be a product. I'm going to go with another MJ analogy...It's like when he went to play baseball. The league as a whole was worse for it but the other teams were going to capitalize.

I'm glad I visited my relatives in Canada last October and moved all my accounts up there. I'm sure of US money has flowed to CAN and will continue to do so. It will be interesting to see if the same profits can be made for scalpers/arbers with Pinnacle now. We'll know soon enough. Never a dull moment.

It might, but in soccer. Pinnacle is a book that has a real chance at building business with Euro sports. They won't get the same volume but they can educate the Will Hill bettor and get their share. I don't think this is like PartyPoker trying to push Texas Holdem to the UK. Pinnacle is not pushing NCAA hoops at Europeans.

Good post Bill. It is so true about the Saturday dynamic lines.....the dynamic lines as we have known it are probably forever changed.

There really is a huge opportunity for someone to duplicate the dynamic lines business model....CRIS?? WSEX??

BAUS

Right. Taking it back a step, will anyone start moving pennies and start leading off on numbers the same way or are we back to half points and 5 cents/move? Pinnacle was the only book encouraging playing moves on the net. It is going to take a style change for someone to go on the offensive like that.

[DrSlamm]

am i the only one worried about ever seeing the 75k in my account?

[Bill Dozer]

That's the question.

Nobody who knows anything is saying.

Everyone who is chattering appears to know nothing.

Those who hold themselves out as being informed about the industry --people such as Mr. Dozer -- haven't shed any light that I have seen.

The lack of insight or even informed speculation is alarming, but I suppose not surprising.

Jay,

I don't pretend to know things when I don't, quote opinions from unnamed sources, or predict the future. You will have to look elsewhere for the rumormill stuff.

[Dark Horse]

Why exactly did Pinnacle close shop?

Are their reasons specific to Pinnacle (location, extradition), or are other books in the same boat?

[Jay Edgar]

TPinnacle didn't leave the market because their wasn't a demand or because it wasn't profitable..

Thanks for the post.

The statement above rings true to any observer.

It begs two bigger questions, though.

1. Why did Pinnacle leave, then?

2. Whatever the answer to #1 is, are those circumstances unique to Pinnacle? And are they circumstances that Pinnacle was uniquely unqualified (hard to believe) or uniquely unwilling (somewhat more possible) to overcome?

[Dark Horse]

I think I beat you by a minute Jay. lol.

[Jay Edgar]

I think I beat you by a minute Jay. lol.

I was going to post "great minds," but I figured it would just overlap with your "great minds" post.

[Bill Dozer]

Why exactly did Pinnacle close shop?

Are their reasons specific to Pinnacle (location, extradition), or are other books in the same boat?

We may never know what exactly was the last straw and why today. We will ask but the public answer likely will be the one they put forth.

As far as "speculation"... They have done well and positioned themselves with options. They chose not to go against the grain. Pinnacle has the resources to regroup and rebuild. They can go on using the top UK banks. They can continue to operate above board in the UK community with an office in prestigious Hyde Park, London and utilize advertising outlets like sponsoring soccer teams.

[Dark Horse]

So, speculating, they chose a fresh new opportunity.

Amazing, but it does remind me a gambler who has mastered one game, and decides to leave it behind to move on to the next challenge; leaving behind a stunned audience.

If that speculation would prove to be true, I would like it a lot.

[DrSlamm]

Bill.. you really think there is no chance of pinnacle stiffing players?

[pags11]

bill, you're the man, but I'm gonna miss pinnacle...

[Bill Dozer]

Me too Pags.

Bill.. you really think there is no chance of pinnacle stiffing players?

No, I don't. They will have to set records for the amounts of sports bettor cash being moved in a short period of time but I'm confident your money is on the way. Reports of payment have been trickling in all morning and I anticipate it will continue throughout the day.

It may also ease players' minds to know that other sportsbooks doing book-to-book transfers are crediting player accounts immediately, even before Pinnacle wires the chunk to the book.

[marc]

Bill,

Do you think Pinn is going to stop offering opinionated lines in US sports. Even if you get rid of all the scalpers in the US, there is more than enogh money outside the US, for scalpers to decimate the small time books.

But I do agree that the first book to offer you the ability to sell points at reaosnable prices and offer reduced vig, is going to be the biggest benefactor

[LVHerbie]

This is the same gloom and doom that we heard when ************ where cut and paypal replaced them then they went away and neteller took over... Anyone want to use a CC to fund an book today?

Good things happen when the leader is "forced" away...

Another good example is the file sharing industry... Anyone remember downloading a song on napster when you could only download a song from one person and then you had to start over if you the other person cut the connection... Anyone who downloads torrent today can see how much of a joke that system was... Hopefully, we see similar things in improve in this industry as this much market share simply isn't going to disappear over night...

I predict by baseball season we will see the dust settle and, again hopefully, have some good improvements in this industry...

[Yoshi]

Dr.Slamm even if you repeat your question for the 20nd time now, you will always get the same answer: NO you wont be stiffed by Pinny, they are the best book out there so why should they.
Your 75k, a lot of money to most of us, means NOTHING to them.
Got it now? Fine, you can move on now i guess ^^

[Bill Dozer]

Bill,

Do you think Pinn is going to stop offering opinionated lines in US sports. Even if you get rid of all the scalpers in the US, there is more than enogh money outside the US, for scalpers to decimate the small time books.

But I do agree that the first book to offer you the ability to sell points at reaosnable prices and offer reduced vig, is going to be the biggest benefactor

I can't see them being what they were in that area. There just won't be the same action and the same confidence in the numbers. Asian bettors will play hoops pretty heavy but it will depend where Pinnacle focuses its efforts. It looks like soccer.

Mansion's decline on American sports was a good example. Euro books don't always like booking sports like basketball. You can see -115 pricing at times. The Betfair guys can correct me but the amount you can get in NBA is only a fraction of the average soccer league?

Euro bettors who watched Pinnacle's numbers on things like Euroleague basketball know that the prices were good but weren't "opinionated". They opened after other books. Maybe they flip that around.

[TLD]

It may also ease players' minds to know that other sportsbooks doing book-to-book transfers are crediting player accounts immediately, even before Pinnacle wires the chunk to the book.

Let's be careful here. I was going to comment on this yesterday.

The downside of getting your money via book-to-book transfer is that the transaction isn't "final" when you think it is.

This is best illustrated by the Aces Gold case. When Aces Gold was in its death throes, a lot of people were breathing a sigh of relief because--they thought--they got their withdrawals processed just in time before they stopped paying. They thought this because they had used book-to-book transfers, and the receiving book had already credited the incoming money to their account. In some cases, in fact, the transfer had been weeks earlier and they had been wagering with that money ever since.

Then all of a sudden most of those receiving books, including most notably CRIS, simply deducted the amount of the transfers from those customers' accounts. Why? Because Aces Gold never paid the other books.

It turns out--as they explained to their stunned customers--that the money doesn't typically change hands immediately in the case of a book-to-book transfer. Instead, the books periodically (weekly, monthly--whatever they decide amongst themselves) settle up all such transactions in bunches. But they still credit the customer account immediately. So, in effect, your playing on credit between the time they're informed by the sending book that a transfer has been requested and the time they actually receive it on the next settle date.

If the transfer is never completed, the receiving book takes those funds right back out of your account.

Now some books did just eat the loss in the Aces Gold case, but probably those were the books that got very few transfers toward the end and so could make a seemingly magnanimous gesture at little cost.

[RickySteve]

Euro bettors who watched Pinnacle's numbers on things like Euroleague basketball know that the prices were good but weren't "opinionated".

This isn't true at all.