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  1. #36

    Any Ozzie, give us a brief primer on TABS, addressing such questions. What is takeout on Win Place & Exotics. What is the overall turnover split between win/place vs exotics. Is the 1.5% added on top of preexisiting takeout levels or subsumed within it. They're private? Yes. What percentage of net profits is paid to "Racing". How is dividend breakage dealt with. In US it goes to horsemen charities etc, in HK it is returned to punters, in UK it is just kept by the pool operator. Anything else you care to elucidate about them.

  2. #37

    Quote Originally Posted by laconic View Post
    Any Ozzie, give us a brief primer on TABS, addressing such questions. What is takeout on Win Place & Exotics. What is the overall turnover split between win/place vs exotics. Is the 1.5% added on top of preexisiting takeout levels or subsumed within it. They're private? Yes. What percentage of net profits is paid to "Racing". How is dividend breakage dealt with. In US it goes to horsemen charities etc, in HK it is returned to punters, in UK it is just kept by the pool operator. Anything else you care to elucidate about them.
    I really don't have all those numbers at my ready disposal. I'm sure you could find the answers if you can spend some time researching material on the net.

    Yes they are now privately owned, having been established originally by the various State governments they were privatised a couple of decades ago but operate under exclusive licences issued by the respective States.

    Win and place betting effectively takes 19c out of the pools. I think it's a little higher on the exotics. The NSW levy is a cost the TABs will have to pick up themselves at this point. Not sure if they plan to recoup it through higher deductions from the pools down the track.

    In recent yeas they have also turned bookmaker, offering fixed odds on racing and sports rather than relying on their traditional pari-mutuel backgrounds.

  3. #38

  4. #39

    It's the LAW Hareeba, after all your smartass comments towards players who suffered from these LAWS i hope it bites you in the ass big time.

  5. #40

  6. #41

  7. #42

    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    It's the LAW Hareeba, after all your smartass comments towards players who suffered from these LAWS i hope it bites you in the ass big time.
    What a staggeringly absurd post!

    Sure it's the law but the idiots behind its introduction are risking massive damage purely because they simply don't understand the consequences, just like you.

    And no doubt racing and sporting bodies around the world are looking at introducing the same thing. This is no good for punters anywhere.

  8. #43

  9. #44

    One of the good things why sports gambling is illegal in America otherwise the American sports leagues would follow these types of measures against bookies.

  10. #45

    nick is wise, spot on.

    but i'm sure there are many countries in between that are better.

  11. #46

    Chicken or the egg philosophy here. There are other outlets to bet these tracks that are not betfair or other sites that pay odds different than the track. So the tracks are protecting their interests. I dont see how that is a bad thing. Horse racing is a dying business already so if they are losing massive handles to exchanges then that is costing them. So if they go it of business then the exchanges wont be covering their action anyway.

    They picked a number (that would seem small to the average person...1.5%) but one they knew would make it impossible for exchanges to continue to be able to offer options thus in essence shutting them down or forcing them to operate at a loss.

    Us already was talking about this in regards to betfair and why Betfair has been lobbying like hell to keep the US fee free. But with this type of ruling I doubt that happens, so therefore I doubt we see betfair associated with US tracks like they wanted to be.

    Bottom line is you can still bet these tracks somewhere you just wont be getting the odds you probably would have. But for all the people who continue to think these books are 'awesome' or 'great' or whatever accolade someone wants to give them remember theyre a BUSINESS. It took them about 30 seconds to realize they couldnt continue to operate that way. So they stopped it. When these places cant make money the eject. So therefore all the things people think they have figured out about them that they think makes them (the player) money the book/exchange is still making a lot more.

  12. #47

    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    Chicken or the egg philosophy here. There are other outlets to bet these tracks that are not betfair or other sites that pay odds different than the track. So the tracks are protecting their interests. I dont see how that is a bad thing. Horse racing is a dying business already so if they are losing massive handles to exchanges then that is costing them. So if they go it of business then the exchanges wont be covering their action anyway.
    I think you are missing the point here by a long way.

    Betfair offers unique options which are not available elsewhere, i.e. laying horses and betting in the run which have attracted a lot of savvy punters.

    The "tracks" as you put it may think they are protecting their interests but what they mostly don't understand is that serious punters look for value and won't bet without it. This is going to result in a signficant decline in turnover and the racing bodies will find that the extra percentage they are charging on reduced revenue will not produce the returns they are talking about.

    Horse racing, at least in Australia, is certainly not dying yet. There is still tremendous interest in the game although its share of the total gambling dollar has been eroded by the growth of poker machines and sports betting.

    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    So therefore all the things people think they have figured out about them that they think makes them (the player) money the book/exchange is still making a lot more.
    The truth is that after a decade of operating in Autralia, Betfair is still to post a profit.

  13. #48

    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    I think you are missing the point here by a long way.

    Betfair offers unique options which are not available elsewhere, i.e. laying horses and betting in the run which have attracted a lot of savvy punters.

    The "tracks" as you put it may think they are protecting their interests but what they mostly don't understand is that serious punters look for value and won't bet without it. This is going to result in a signficant decline in turnover and the racing bodies will find that the extra percentage they are charging on reduced revenue will not produce the returns they are talking about.

    Horse racing, at least in Australia, is certainly not dying yet. There is still tremendous interest in the game although its share of the total gambling dollar has been eroded by the growth of poker machines and sports betting.



    The truth is that after a decade of operating in Autralia, Betfair is still to post a profit.
    But if betfair is taking the action what do the tracks care? Even by charging the 1.5% they are still not getting all tha much out of it. less than a typical OTB gives them I am sure.

    Obviously it is bad for players but having betfair leave wont hurt them one bit. If it 'forces' players to bet through a place that does benefit them it will obviously help them.

    If they can make money with the new rulings then they will stay if they cant they will either charge their customers for it or they will stop offering the option.

  14. #49

    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    But if betfair is taking the action what do the tracks care? Even by charging the 1.5% they are still not getting all tha much out of it. less than a typical OTB gives them I am sure.

    Obviously it is bad for players but having betfair leave wont hurt them one bit. If it 'forces' players to bet through a place that does benefit them it will obviously help them.

    If they can make money with the new rulings then they will stay if they cant they will either charge their customers for it or they will stop offering the option.
    The 1.5% is a levy on all the turnover of all betting agencies. The problem is that a levy on turnover can't work for Betfair which is a traders' marketplace. They can't simply charge more to cover the levy. That is why they put the case for a fairer formula based on gross profit which all bar the NSW industry accepted. Now that NSW won the court battle the others appear to have been convinced that they will fall behind if they don't follow suit.

    As a player, having Betfair abandon Australian racing will most certainly hurt a lot. My turnover on racing will probably drop to about 10% of its current level as I don't bet just for the thrill of it. I need to see a realistic opportunity for profit. And a high percentage of Betfair players are no different to me. So racing will lose out on revenue altogether from all that action. Further, Betfair has been a very active participant in promoting and sponsoring racing in Australia. That too will be lost to them.

  15. #50

    BETFAIR’S RESPONSE TO RACING VICTORIA’S FUNDING MODEL DECISION

    In response to the decision of Racing Victoria to move from a funding model based on gross revenue to one based on turnover, Betfair Australasia’s CEO Giles Thompson stated: “We are extremely disappointed that Racing Victoria has ignored the economic analysis and evidence which clearly demonstrates that a fee based on gross revenue is in the best long term interests of Victorian racing.

    “Racing Victoria engaged Peter Yates and PWC to conduct a widespread review to find the optimum funding model for racing and it was found that a fee based on gross revenue ensured the greater returns to racing in the long term whilst continuing to foster competition. This was the same conclusion reached by the Productivity Commission.

    “Betfair has always paid race fields fees to the Victorian racing industry. A fee based on gross revenue ensured all types of wagering operators could compete and offer their services to punters to bet on Victorian racing.

    “A gross revenue model has been in place in Victoria for over 3 years and in that time the racing industry has continued to flourish with competition driving sponsorships and increased services to punters. Betfair has been at the forefront of that competition. With over 4 million customers worldwide, Betfair provides the Victorian racing industry with the opportunity to tap into a global market place that local operators can’t provide.

    “A fee of 1.5% of turnover equates to 60% of Betfair’s revenue generated on Victorian racing and this will increase to 80% of revenue during October and November. No business can sustain costs at that level and clearly we will need to consider our response.

    “By offering punters the experience of a betting exchange, we are providing a unique platform for them to engage with Victorian racing. A betting exchange relies on liquidity and is therefore a high turnover operator by definition. The fee being proposed by Racing Victoria seriously hampers the ability to offer such a product on commercially viable terms.

    “The racing industry is dependent on funding it receives from punters and racing bodies should be doing everything in their power to ensure they are provided with choice, customer service and competitive prices. A fee based on turnover seriously limits competition and will only hurt racing in the long term”.

  16. #51
    jjgold's Avatar SBR PRO
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    Hareeba Australia just protecting its product

    It sure seems they do not care about Betfair

    SBR Founder Join Date: 7/20/2005


  17. #52

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Hareeba Australia just protecting its product

    It sure seems they do not care about Betfair
    or the punters who they expect to fund their game

    and the breeders don't have to contribute anything but this decision has been a boon to them and driven up yearling prices .. sales now on ... a filly (half sister to the world champ, Black Caviar) sold for a record $2.6m. yesterday.

    in the end they will discover that the turnover model will result in less revenue but by then Betfair will be long gone - along with their jobs

  18. #53

    Hopefully Betfair will be gone, nothing better could happen and noone deserves it more wuwu

  19. #54

    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    Hopefully Betfair will be gone, nothing better could happen and noone deserves it more wuwu
    No one? You mean all those people who depend on the racing industry for their livelihood who will suffer from the loss of jobs and reduced funding to sustain it and the percentage of that turnover revenue which goes to hospitals and charities? Not to mention hundreds of Betfair employees.
    Last edited by Hareeba!; 04-11-12 at 11:43 PM.

  20. #55

    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    Not to mention hundreds of Betfair employees.
    like yourself?

  21. #56

    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    Hopefully Betfair will be gone, nothing better could happen and noone deserves it more wuwu
    I think a statement such as this deserves some justification.

    Why would it be beneficial? And for whom?

  22. #57

    Betfair are rogues, and kill most of the competition for other exchanges.
    Iam back at matchbook, and it's pretty ok (now)...these are honest ppl, Betfair are scumbags.
    I don't have to justify my opinion, that the world would be a better place without Betunfair.

  23. #58

    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    Betfair are rogues, and kill most of the competition for other exchanges.
    Iam back at matchbook, and it's pretty ok (now)...these are honest ppl, Betfair are scumbags.
    I don't have to justify my opinion, that the world would be a better place without Betunfair.
    You are part of a tiny minority. Millions of punters are very pleased to be able to use Betfair and millions more would like to. You are entitled to have your opinion, justified or not to leave them alone but the fact is that nobody will benefit from Betfair's withdrawal from Australia. It is a lose-lose outcome driven by fools.

  24. #59

    USA horse players are better off with TVG, Xpressbet, or Twinspire....

  25. #60

    Just Australia? Damn, i hoped BF would disappear completely.

  26. #61

    Quote Originally Posted by Monte View Post
    Just Australia? Damn, i hoped BF would disappear completely.
    Obviously it has escaped you (probably because you don't bother reading any but my posts so that you can drop crap on them) that this whole thread is about the current upheaval in Australia.

  27. #62

    I know, making a bit fun of you in case you didn't notice.
    Right, off to work...

  28. #63
    jjgold's Avatar SBR PRO
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    Its quite possible the growth in TAB online sports betting has changed things

    You have places like Tatts getting into the sports business online now

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  29. #64

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Its quite possible the growth in TAB online sports betting has changed things

    You have places like Tatts getting into the sports business online now
    Relevance to the issue being discussed?

  30. #65
    jjgold's Avatar SBR PRO
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    Hareeba??????????????

    Meaning they are getting more revenue in and do not have to be dependent as much on the race markets and can make their own rules

    Hareeba lets face it Aussie love the horses and will gamble on them no matter what

    SBR Founder Join Date: 7/20/2005


  31. #66

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Hareeba??????????????

    Meaning they are getting more revenue in and do not have to be dependent as much on the race markets and can make their own rules

    Hareeba lets face it Aussie love the horses and will gamble on them no matter what
    Not all of us are that dumb mate. I and several punters of my acquaintance will cease or at least be very severely reducing our betting on races if Betfair departs the scene.

  32. #67

    Tatts have been online for a while now! UniTAB merged with tatts in 2006. $3.29 million in revenue for 2009!

  33. #68
    jjgold's Avatar SBR PRO
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    Tatts have been online for a while now! UniTAB merged with tatts in 2006. $3.29 million in revenue for 2009!

    That seems low??

    SBR Founder Join Date: 7/20/2005


  34. #69

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    That seems low??
    Should bring up a table comparing all online sportsbook revenues, where to find all the details??

    As for seeming low, i dunno, i haven't got revenue numbers from other books to compare it to. seems huge to me first glance.

  35. #70

    That should have said $3.29 BILLION , sorry my mistake

    that would include lotto tickets.

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