1. #1
    ttwarrior1
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    The 9-11 jumpers; they didn't "jump

    If you have a weak stomach i don't recommend reading this post. It's a blog i found online








    The 9-11 jumpers; they didn't "jump"


    This is an issue that isn't talked about a lot, because it's so unpleasant, and extremely emotional. It's about the people who supposedly "jumped" from the WTC towers before they collapsed.

    So many in the media seemed to claim at the time that they were jumping out of "despair"; as if it were just an emotional response, a suicide choice; an act of will, that they could simply choose to do or not do.

    That just seems like such an unfair judgment to me. I don't believe that most, if any, of those people "chose" to jump. I think SMOKE, HEAT and FLAMES simply FORCED them to their deaths by falling. You can't "choose" whether or not you want to stand close to burning jet fuel; you simply can't. If there is nowhere safe to move away to, you move anyway. Just the smoke alone, making it impossible for you to even breath... if you were suffocating, what would you do for air?

    To call it jumping, like it was a choice, just seems wrong. When people went to work at the WTC that morning, they were not expecting to have to jump to their deaths. These poor souls did NOT choose this...


    Last year at this time I posted a Tribute to Lorraine D. Antigua as part of the "2,996 project" to memorialize the victims of 9-11. While researching that, I read a lot about the situation of the employees at Lorraine's firm, Cantor Fitzgerald. That in turn lead to many articles about people who fell to their deaths.

    It's an extremely volatile topic, that generates a wide range of reactions. It was only years after the attack occurred that many people could even begin to talk about it.


    On one level I feel compelled to post on this topic because of my many years experience working in high-rise security and fire safety. Yet that experience also makes it extremely upsetting, because what the victims of the WTC attack faced before they died is... not an abstraction to me. So much of my job was about keeping people safe from those very things.

    I'm going to post some links to articles that examine what happened, why people "jumped" or fell; how people have dealt with it; and why it matters.

    Desperation forced a horrific decision
    [...] "It took three or four to realize: They were people," says James Logozzo, who had gathered with co-workers in a Morgan Stanley boardroom on the 72nd floor of the south tower, just 120 feet away from the north tower. "Then this one woman fell."

    She fell closer to the south tower, he recalls. Logozzo saw her face. She had dark hair and olive skin, a white blouse and black skirt. She fell with her back to the ground, flat, staring up.

    "The look on her face was shock. She wasn't screaming. It was slow motion. When she hit, there was nothing left," Logozzo says.

    [...]

    USA TODAY estimates that at least 200 people jumped to their deaths that morning, far more than can be seen in the photographs taken that morning. Nearly all were from the north tower, which was hit first and collapsed last. Fewer than a dozen were from the south tower.

    The jumping started shortly after the first jet hit at 8:46 a.m. People jumped continuously during the 102 minutes that the north tower stood. Two people jumped as the north tower began to fall at 10:28 a.m., witnesses said.

    For those who jumped, the fall lasted 10 seconds. They struck the ground at just less than 150 miles per hour — not fast enough to cause unconsciousness while falling, but fast enough to ensure instant death on impact. People jumped from all four sides of the north tower. They jumped alone, in pairs and in groups.

    Most came from the north tower's 101st to 105th floors, where the Cantor Fitzgerald bond firm had offices, and the 106th and 107th floors, where a conference was underway at the Windows on the World restaurant. Others leaped from the 93rd through 100th floor offices of Marsh & McLennan insurance company.

    Intense smoke and heat, rather than flames, pushed people into this horrific choice. Flight 11 struck the 94th through 98th floors of the north tower, shooting heat and smoke up elevator shafts and stairways in the center of the building. Within minutes, it would have been very difficult to breathe. That drove people to the windows 1,100 to 1,300 feet above ground.

    There were several reasons more people jumped from the north tower than from the south. The fire was more intense and compact in the north tower. The jet hit higher, so smoke was concentrated in 15 floors compared with 30 floors in the south tower, which was hit on the 78th through 84th floors. The north tower also stood longer: 102 minutes vs. 56 minutes. And twice as many people were trapped on the north tower's upper floors than in the south tower, where occupants had 161/2 minutes to evacuate before the second jet hit.

    The New York medical examiner's office says it does not classify the people who fell to their deaths on Sept. 11 as "jumpers."

    "A 'jumper' is somebody who goes to the office in the morning knowing that they will commit suicide," says Ellen Borakove, spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. "These people were forced out by the smoke and flames or blown out." [...]
    (bold emphasis mine) Breaking the windows so they could breath also unfortunately fed the flames of the fire. An unbelievably horrific situation.













    THE 9/11 JUMPERS
    [...] Jack Gentual, dean of student services at the New Jersey Institute of Technology got a call from his wife Alayne who worked in the tower and was trapped on the 97th floor. "She told me smoke was coming in the room, coming through the vents, her breath was laboured ... She said to me 'I'm scared' and she wasn't a person who got scared. She said that she loved me and to tell the boys she loved them." Alayne told her husband that she was going to try to escape to the lower floors and that she would call later.

    But Gentual never heard from his wife again. Her body was found on the street in front of the building across from hers. He wonders if his wife was one of the many who decided to jump. "In some ways it might just be the last elements of control. To be out of the smoke and the heat, to be out in the air...it must have felt like flying."

    For those who jumped, the fall lasted about ten seconds. The jumpers hit the ground at 240 kilometres a hour. It wasn't fast enough to cause unconsciousness while falling, but ensured instant death on impact.

    Witnesses there that day say there was a constant stream of jumpers over the next hour and a half. [...]
    The article has a photo of Alayne Gentual.


    Falling Man: the many faces of a 9/11 riddle

    This is a story about the search to identify a falling man in one of the photos. People's reactions to this quest were varied and sometimes extreme. Even if you don't agree with the way some people reacted, it's not hard to understand. Everyone deals with the horror in their own way.



    The Falling Man (Esquire Magazine)
    [...] They jumped through windows already broken and then, later, through windows they broke themselves. They jumped to escape the smoke and the fire; they jumped when the ceilings fell and the floors collapsed; they jumped just to breathe once more before they died. They jumped continually, from all four sides of the building, and from all floors above and around the building's fatal wound. They jumped from the offices of Marsh & McLennan, the insurance company; from the offices of Cantor Fitzgerald, the bond-trading company; from Windows on the World, the restaurant on the 106th and 107th floors--the top. For more than an hour and a half, they streamed from the building, one after another, consecutively rather than en masse, as if each individual required the sight of another individual jumping before mustering the courage to jump himself or herself. One photograph, taken at a distance, shows people jumping in perfect sequence, like parachutists, forming an arc composed of three plummeting people, evenly spaced. Indeed, there were reports that some tried parachuting, before the force generated by their fall ripped the drapes, the tablecloths, the desperately gathered fabric, from their hands. They were all, obviously, very much alive on their way down, and their way down lasted an approximate count of ten seconds. They were all, obviously, not just killed when they landed but destroyed, in body though not, one prays, in soul. [...]
    This articles deals in part with the same identity search story as in the story above this one, but it also has other sections dealing with various reactions by different people. It's a very contentious issue for many people.



    What it was like to jump from the World Trade Center

    These are photos with a question that makes a lot of people angry. Reactions to it in the comments section are mixed; some feel that it is needed to "never forget", and to galvanize our resolve in the WOT. Others feel it's morbid and in bad taste.

    I think it is ALL of those things. Murdering people in terrorist acts is morbid and in the worst possible bad taste. I'd much rather think about other things. But ignoring and not dealing with things is precisely what led up to 9-11. If we can't even look at what's happened, how are we going to stop it from happening again? If we continue living in a 9-10 world, where we just refuse to look at or deal with some things, what will come next? If we can't look at the ugly truth, the whole of it, how are we going to respond to it effectively?



  2. #2
    affest
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    why they didn't try to put up some sort of cushions below. no time?

  3. #3
    GunShard
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    The image of two people holding hands in mid air is faked by the way. It's a duplicate image of himself.

    Yea, the heat forced people instinctively to get out of the building. This is a horrific event.

    They should create a new type of helicopter that sprays large amount of anti fire chemicals so for when a skyscraper is on fire. Make many of them in major cities.

  4. #4
    Cap dat 4ss
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    TT, the editor of the blog is arguing semantics. She wants to say they fell because they didn't "choose" to jump therefore they weren't jumpers. Fine, Potato - Patato man. Who cares? They're dead. You call them fallers, I call them jumpers, whatever. But lets not let that take our attention away from what really matters. That these people that died were moms, dads, sons, daughters, husbands and wives. All they did was show up to work that day and didn't deserve not choose their fates. I can't imagine the pain their families now feel not being able to see them anymore. I can't imagine having to explain to my children that their mom wouldn't be coming home ever again because some radical Muslims hi-jacked jet liners and crashed them into the place where mom works. I can't imagine never being able to kiss my wife again. 1600 people lost a spouse. 3000 kids lost a parent that day TT. Love those close to you and make the most of life. Preach and practice tolerance. And remember the dead of 9/11 and their families. While we've all moved on with our lives they're stuck re-living the deaths of their loved ones every year.
    Last edited by Cap dat 4ss; 09-12-11 at 03:31 AM.

  5. #5
    affest
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    I read it all, some might not bother but just leave this thread alone please

  6. #6
    affest
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunShard View Post
    The image of two people holding hands in mid air is faked by the way. It's a duplicate image of himself.

    Yea, the heat forced people instinctively to get out of the building. This is a horrific event.
    .
    why has someone did that,

  7. #7
    rsnnh12
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    Quote Originally Posted by affest View Post
    why they didn't try to put up some sort of cushions below. no time?
    It was a 1,000+ foot fall... "cushions" wouldn't have done anything. The only chance these people had was if they had parachutes with them.

    The first firefighter to die on 9/11 was hit by a jumper. I can't imagine many situations worse than needing to jump out of a skyscraper. Incredibly sad, traumatizing day.

  8. #8
    dxunchuk
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    very sad and horrific , nobody can imagine what it is to face death and have to choose how to die , when there is no way out .....

  9. #9
    BookiesBernanke
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    Of course the article picks a "person falling" that is in the occult hanged man position

  10. #10
    RudyRuetigger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap dat 4ss View Post
    TT, the editor of the blog is arguing semantics.


    what a fukkin dumb person and waste of time reading

  11. #11
    pavyracer
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    Quote Originally Posted by affest View Post
    why they didn't try to put up some sort of cushions below. no time?
    Are you serious? Because they hit the ground at 200 mph. Not even the NASCAR soft wall can absorb this impact. And the human bone is much weaker than the steel the cars are made of.

  12. #12
    d2bets
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    Quote Originally Posted by affest View Post
    why they didn't try to put up some sort of cushions below. no time?
    You can't be serious.

  13. #13
    MartinBlank
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsnnh12 View Post
    It was a 1,000+ foot fall... "cushions" wouldn't have done anything. The only chance these people had was if they had parachutes with them.

    The first firefighter to die on 9/11 was hit by a jumper. I can't imagine many situations worse than needing to jump out of a skyscraper. Incredibly sad, traumatizing day.
    Is that really true? A firefighter was killed by a jumper? That is ******* horrifying if true. I can't imagine the violence of that impact. A human being from 1000 feet landing on another person? Jesus.

  14. #14
    d2bets
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    I can't imagine making direct impact at 200mph. That is crazy. I mean, if there actually was an enormous trampoline thing able to withstand the impact of that speed, how high would the person then bounce back up? You could fly a few miles maybe. Mind boggling.

  15. #15
    crustyme
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    thats what happens when the idiot in charge ignores warnings detailing exactly what the terrorists were planning to do. proverbial blue print as the 911 commission called it.


  16. #16
    rsnnh12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinBlank View Post
    Is that really true? A firefighter was killed by a jumper? That is ******* horrifying if true. I can't imagine the violence of that impact. A human being from 1000 feet landing on another person? Jesus.
    Yup. Danny Suhr was his name. I think other people were hit by jumpers as well, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

    This link has some pretty scary first responder accounts from that day.
    http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/anopenletter

  17. #17
    Masu485
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    Quote Originally Posted by BookiesBernanke View Post
    Of course the article picks a "person falling" that is in the occult hanged man position




    It is strikingly similar. It actually shocked me a bit.

  18. #18
    Blind Racer
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    That was a real heart breaking moment, but this is the first time I’m watching people jumping out of the WTC.

  19. #19
    Blind Racer
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    That was a real heart breaking moment, but this is the first time I’m watching people jumping out of the WTC.
    Last edited by Blind Racer; 09-13-11 at 07:49 AM.

  20. #20
    aceking
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    why didn't your Gods stopped the planes and rescue the victims ?

    same reason why Superman and Thor didn't show up - they are fictional characters in cool storys bro .

  21. #21
    RGG
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    Quote Originally Posted by affest View Post
    why they didn't try to put up some sort of cushions below. no time?
    I always wondered the same thing, but then again they were 100 floors up so who knows if it would have worked even.

  22. #22
    pavyracer
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    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/flobi.html

    OK here it is boys. It's in metric but I will convert it to british units for you.

    I used 100 kg for weight of person (220 lbs)
    400 m for height from which body jumped (1312 ft)

    The velocity at impact is 88.54 m/s (198 mph)

    So the body hit the floor at close to 200 mph. Well try to drop a watermelon from 10 ft (2nd floor of your house) and see what happens. The same thing happened to a person hitting the ground at 200 mph.

  23. #23
    crustyme
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    there have been people that jumped out of airplanes and their chutes didnt open yet still survived landing on puddles of water or bushes so anythings possible.

  24. #24
    KKoz9
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    Nice post tt, good food for thought.

    Not to impune anything on you, but I expected to see something like "Bush had the the NSA throwing corpses out the window" or something when I read the post title.

  25. #25
    jimkotecki
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    So do they get into heaven?

  26. #26
    VegasInsider
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    I hate you ttwarrior.
    Nomination(s):
    This post was nominated 1 time . To view the nominated thread please click here. People who nominated: Bluehorseshoe

  27. #27
    chemicalbrother
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    lot of dumb things being said in this thread.

  28. #28
    Dutch
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsnnh12 View Post
    I can't imagine many situations worse than needing to jump out of a skyscraper.

    This.

    If your mind and body are telling you to jump, you're in bad shape already. Saddest shit I ever saw.

  29. #29
    mr. leisure
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    If you were on the north tower top floors you know it`s hopeless .You can`t breathe, the heat from burning jet fuel is hotter than hell and you see the south tower collaspe so you know your tower is going down too .
    You might think about ending your life on your own terms .

  30. #30
    dante1
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    Having a weapon would have been a god sent in this situation. Being able to mercifully kill some of your coworkers and then yourself. I wouldn't be surprised if this was accomplished by some. And some eyewitness people said yes, people did hold hands and jump. Can't think of a more horrific death. What a shame.

    News show said 93 different countries represented among the dead. That too is incredible.

    I must visit that 9-11 memorial, I was told it is touching and beautiful at night.

  31. #31
    19th Hole
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    Never forget.......

  32. #32
    shooterman
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    In early 1900's there was a factory fire in NY where 1 or 2 hundred people died. I believe most of them were jumpers. I also know if given a choice of jumping or burning to death I am jumping for sure.

  33. #33
    mr. leisure
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterman View Post
    In early 1900's there was a factory fire in NY where 1 or 2 hundred people died. I believe most of them were jumpers. I also know if given a choice of jumping or burning to death I am jumping for sure.
    The Triangle Shirtwaist Company Fire, 1911
    Printer Friendly Version >>>

    A majority of the immigrants that landed on America's shores made their way to the tenement sections of the teeming cities of the Northeast. Often illiterate and with a limited knowledge of English, they found jobs wherever they could, often taking the lowest paying and most menial employment. The Triangle Shirtwaist Company located in New York City exemplified the working conditions these new immigrants often encountered.
    The Triangle Shirtwaist Company occupied the top three floors of a ten-floor building in the heart of Manhattan's
    Bodies of victims liiter the street
    March 25, 1911

    Garment District. The company employed over 500 women ranging in age from thirteen to twenty-three and mostly Jewish or Italian. The majority labored at sewing machines turning out clothing for which they were paid "by the piece." To encourage the seamstresses to stay at their machines and to inhibit stealing, company management routinely locked the exit doors. The hours were long (9-10 hours per day), the work monotonous, the pay low - in short, the Triangle Shirtwaist Company epitomized the "Sweatshop."
    On Saturday March 25, 1911 disaster struck. As the women approached the end of their workday, a small fire started in the cutting room on the eighth floor. It was 4:30 in the afternoon. Within minutes, flames fueled by loose cloth lying in innumerable piles engulfed the area and spread to the floors above. Panic spread with the flames and smoke. The women madly dashed to the exits only to find them locked. They furiously pounded on the doors to no avail. The one fire escape at the rear of the building collapsed, killing many and cutting off that route of escape. Some attempted to slide down the elevator cables only to lose their grip and fall to their deaths. Others, their clothes afire, jumped in groups from the top of the building or from open windows on the lower floors.
    Bessie Gabrilowich ran frantically first to the locked main door and then luckily found an open stairway near the freight elevator. Groping her way through the smoke to the street below, she looked up to see many of her co-workers leaping from the windows of the upper stories. Among them was a friend, Dora Wolfovitch, aged 15. Years later Bessie recalled: "Everybody was running to get out. And there was this beautiful little girl, my friend Dora, I remember her face before she jumped." Dora did not survive.
    Firemen search for victims
    Firefighters arrived quickly but found their way to the building hindered by bodies lying in the street. Their ladders reached only to the sixth floor and their safety nets broke as they tried to catch groups of women jumping from the flaming building.
    In less than 30 minutes, the fire had spent itself. In its wake it left 147 dead - the worst factory fire in New York City's history. The tragedy, and the working conditions it revealed, inflamed public opinion leading to reform of working conditions for women and children. It also fueled the union movement adding impetus to the organization of the International Garment Workers' Union.
    The owners of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company were tried for manslaughter but acquitted. Three years after the fire, a court ordered the owners to pay $75.00 to each of twenty-three families who had sued for the loss of family members.

    This building only had 10 floors unlike the WTC` s that had 100 +
    Last edited by mr. leisure; 09-13-11 at 01:54 PM.

  34. #34
    dante1
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterman View Post
    In early 1900's there was a factory fire in NY where 1 or 2 hundred people died. I believe most of them were jumpers. I also know if given a choice of jumping or burning to death I am jumping for sure.


    Yeah, before government regulations. Some of us want to return to those good old days. Me too, what a great idea!

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