[Illusion]

BetOnStars(SBR rating F-) - The proposed deal to rescue this failed sportsbook has fallen through according to their previous promoter; TheOnlineWire. While BetOnStars was operating, management as well as their promoter publicly criticized SBR for their poor SBR rating and SBR’s skepticism that they were not simply another scam. The BetOnStars failure is yet another reminder that weak sportsbooks and scams abound in this unregulated industry. Players are advised to carefully research a sportsbook before sending money.

[Brick Tamland]

if you were playin there at the end you need your head checked. tow puts up any book smart enough to sign name on a check.

[Terris]

Jay88 was a good person...tow is a good site...SBR is bad they ruined another good bookie...Johnny is a funny name for a manager, where is Jimmy...iam joking...

[Mudcat]

Didn't TOW have this book as part of their, "Rookie Project?"

[SBR_John]

Yes this was a tow rookie book.

tow is going to learn their lesson one way or the other. Its impossible to promote these fly-by-nights and remain credible.

In typical tow form, roberto has posted some impossible to read rambling 20 page manifesto trying again to spread the blame for his latest failure. I read the 1st sentence and fell asleep. He must not get any advice. He would be better served by standing up like a man and saying "i'm sorry, i screwed up" instead of always trying to blame others.

The lesson is a simple one:
No one knows if these new books can last even a year, most do not. If someone recommends a rookie book they are simply greedy and do not care at all about the players or this industry.

[gotsteam]

Well I cannot speak for anyone else, and by no stretch of the imagination am I some kind of expert on all of this

I do know that I first saw this betsonstars here in the SBR forum group a long time before I see them on Tow

In fact I found it wierd that you guys were letting Jay, whom I understood to be an employee of that book, troll the forums for business, considering it is poor etiquette.

Further it gives the implication that it is a sanctioned activity. Perhaps someone should let all the other books know they can troll for players here with the blessings of John and Bill.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

I read that somewhere, but perhaps one of our kind moderators can de-bunk that quote too.

[Brick Tamland]

gotghosts?

[SBR_John]

Yea that was spin. BoS was on here trying to defend themself and denying SBR reports. They were good threads and anyone who read them would not have any common sense if they read about them here and still sent money. They were exposed and they complained we were picking on them.

We don't even allow sponsors to troll or even promote themself here and they pay the bills.

Spin is spin, its a way to deflect blame and no one is better at it than tow. But this is a long race and players remember who recommended who.

[gotsteam]

Originally Posted by SBR_John

Yea that was spin. BoS was on here trying to defend themself and denying SBR reports. They were good threads and anyone who read them would not have any common sense if they read about them here and still sent money. They were exposed and they complained we were picking on them.

We don't even allow sponsors to troll or even promote themself here and they pay the bills.

Spin is spin, its a way to deflect blame and no one is better at it than tow. But this is a long race and players remember who recommended who.

I am not sure if you are aiming your SPIN statement at me or not, but all I can say is this Jay guy was very active here, and early on it was not them being exposed

Perhaps later on, but at that time, many of us could have already sent funds.

[Mudcat]

As moderators, we are always trying to get more organized and fair - and in some cases tough - in how we deal with posters connected with other sites. It's not always an easy balance.

There have been changes since the time you are remembering gotsteam and I'm not sure things would go exacty the same with Jay88 today, but I appreciate your feedback.

[gotsteam]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

As moderators, we are always trying to get more organized and fair - and in some cases tough - in how we deal with posters connected with other sites. It's not always an easy balance.

There have been changes since the time you are remembering gotsteam and I'm not sure things would go exacty the same with Jay88 today, but I appreciate your feedback.

Great to know there have been changes here to prevent this from happening again.

I am sure it is a fantastic consolation to those who have their money tied up in that mess.

Hopefully these changes will ensure that kind of thing doesnt happen again.

My father always told me, there are no excuses for someone who does not learn from their mistakes.

[tacomax]

The most important thing is that you're happy, gotsteam.

[gotsteam]

Originally Posted by tacomax

The most important thing is that you're happy, gotsteam.

Thanks TACO, and YES I am happy, very happy.

I did not send my money to them, so no problem.

I do think that the ones who should be happy, are the ones who DID SEND their cash to this book, based on Jay posting here, unstopped by the moderators. Obviously they assumed the book was OK, because the moderators didnt stop the posting from continuing.

Anyhow, like I said they should be happy, not me.

Things are different now according to the moderator MUDCAT so SBR will not make that MISTAKE again and cost players money, and that is a change for the better.

[RPM]

SPIN?

come on john. i'm the first to admit that we at tow were wrong in taking betonstars. we are atoning for that by paying out the insurance, and helping others that were playing there get paid.

but lets be honest, sbr employees were sending players to betonstars for bailouts so i dont think it is very fair for you to now sit back saying i told you so. what have you done to try to help any of the players you guys sent to betonstars either directly or by letting them post here?

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by gotsteam

Thanks TACO, and YES I am happy, very happy.

I did not send my money to them, so no problem.

I do think that the ones who should be happy, are the ones who DID SEND their cash to this book, based on Jay posting here, unstopped by the moderators. Obviously they assumed the book was OK, because the moderators didnt stop the posting from continuing.

Anyhow, like I said they should be happy, not me.

Things are different now according to the moderator MUDCAT so SBR will not make that MISTAKE again and cost players money, and that is a change for the better.

I didn't say there were mistakes here. The truth is I doubt there were. I just recall a lot of normal forum back-and forth in which, among other things, moderators (and other members) warned players against upstart books.

I only said we are always working on doing a better job. That is true.

Certainly anything that happened here would not compare in impact to promoting them on a Rookie Book Project so no doubt gotsteam is posting with three times the vigor at TOW right now because I'm sure he has no agenda other than just being sincerely worried about things that cost players money.

[SBR_John]

The "spin" is trying to include BetOnStars harshest critic in the same thing you guys were doing which was promoting them.

Its just like the RichCoast fiasco part 2.

Bottomline is until you guys stop promoting these type of books you will be forced to try to salavage your credibility each time one fails. You can use spin or try standing up man-like and take your medicine but either way the result is the same. As long as you promote dangerous books bad things will continue to happen.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by RPM

SPIN?

come on john. i'm the first to admit that we at tow were wrong in taking betonstars. we are atoning for that by paying out the insurance, and helping others that were playing there get paid.

but lets be honest, sbr employees were sending players to betonstars for bailouts so i dont think it is very fair for you to now sit back saying i told you so. what have you done to try to help any of the players you guys sent to betonstars either directly or by letting them post here?

Yes SPIN.

There is no comparison at all. TOW's role is many, many times worse.

[gotsteam]

I have only just started posting on these forums, although I have been reading them for quite a few months now.

I just registered as well today at TOW and plan to start posting there.

I do notice one major difference between the 2 sites.

This site always wants to take the "saint" position, and imply they do not make mistakes.

We all make mistakes, we are all human.

[THE SHRINK]

Here's a novel idea...

Rather than pointing fingers at one another, how about we all work together to help gamblers get paid when a crisis like this arises???

Although I have not been involved with this recent situation, I'd be willing to help out in any way I can...

THE SHRINK

[gotsteam]

Originally Posted by THE SHRINK

Here's a novel idea...

Rather than pointing fingers at one another, how about we all work together to help gamblers get paid when a crisis like this arises???

Although I have not been involved with this recent situation, I'd be willing to help out in any way I can...

THE SHRINK

Yes, I agree

What a great idea.

Personally I was under the impression that was the mission of this site. I guess I was mistaken.

I apologize for my mistake.

Lets make sure everyone gets what they are due!

[SBR_John]

This was predictable Shrink. When RichCoast failed tow tried to balme SBR, ditto with BetOnStars.

We will always help anyone who writes and request help so that's not an issue.

As long as they promote dangerous books bad things will continue to happen.

[THE SHRINK]

John,

I know how frustrated you feel. But, no matter how hard we try to take on the ELITE, where do we draw the line?

As you know, EOG tried doing just that, but there weren't enough sports books to cover our overhead and allow us to make a reasonable profit...

As you very well know, the cost of running a quality gambling portal is much higher than posters can ever imagine..

Therefore, we lowered the bar some. So far, so good, but I am always concerned for the safety of players accounts because without their trust, we wouldn't have advertisers...

Why can't we all come up with a reasonable objective set of criteria before allowing a sports book to advertise, then put our money where or mouths are and insure the players funds COLLECTIVELY?

I'm all for this if it can be done fairly and legally...

THE SHRINK

[THE SHRINK]

P.S.

Congrats on 2000 plus posts in less than a year..

I'd have bet the UNDER for a max bet...

[TOW]

There's people out there who think we are divided or are rooting for us to get divided.

As I mentioned elsewhere this morning we are not divided by any mean. Certainly we are seeing things in a different way but just like convened in the recent past we are all ready to seat at the same table and discuss measures to improve the quality of service we provide to the gambling community.

I have no problem in admitting the mistake made with Betonstars. They fooled me not once, but twice, hence shame on me.

At the same time I have been working really hard to secure players balances, and believe this will be accomplished very soon.

No one is immune from mistakes, but the greatest mistake we can make is to fall in the trap that others prepared: work on our nerves to divide us.

Obviously John, Ken and myself maintain the prerogative to disagree on issues. We have voiced our disagreement and that's it.

[priceperheadexpert]

TOW..I know the players..this was a tough NUT to crack..

[SBR_John]

There is no way for you to know roberto. You can not evaluate these books. Its hard enough when they are big and have a track record.

Your site is relatively new and growing. But then you wandered into an area that will doom you if you continue to promote these dangerous books. Its not worth it. How much did you make on BoS and Richcoast? Seriously, was it worth it?

I don't blame you for not knowing these books would fail, how could you? But I do believe that as long as you promote dangerous books bad things will continue to happen.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by RPM

SPIN?

come on john. i'm the first to admit that we at tow were wrong in taking betonstars. we are atoning for that by paying out the insurance, and helping others that were playing there get paid.

but lets be honest, sbr employees were sending players to betonstars for bailouts so i dont think it is very fair for you to now sit back saying i told you so. what have you done to try to help any of the players you guys sent to betonstars either directly or by letting them post here?

BBD got me the Pan-am bail-out, which I accepted, but the Pan-am thing was in Roberto's hands for a long time before that.

To be fair though, Roberto didn't get me into Pan-am, that's more the fault of RX and being over-rated here. Didn't Pan-am have a rating in the B range at one time ?

[tacomax]

Originally Posted by Doug

Didn't Pan-am have a rating in the B range at one time ?

They were highly rated here as they were at a lot of other sites but, as John said Its hard enough when they are big and have a track record.

If you take on the lower quality books, don't be surprised when your batting average is worse than the Chicago Cubs.

[SBR_John]

Pan Am did have a high of B+. We were the first to downgrade them and the rest is history. Roberto had a collection business at the time and charged for collections and did a good job. He leveraged that to open tow and for a while only promoted the best books.

No one is going to be right all the time. New books, we all now know, are very risky. We will never recommend a new book because of the PanAm lesson. No player advocate or any one else should recommend a book that is in its first year...period. Lesson learned.

[Doug]

A year is good, but if everybody follows that, there will never be another new book.

[tacomax]

Of course there will be new books - people will sign-up via marketing or word-of-mouth. All John is saying is that player advocate sites shouldn't promote any books in their first year. If you are batting for the player, you shouldn't push them to new start-ups no matter how green the grass looks in the garden.

[TOW]

The problem is right John. We can hardly get to know what goes through the mind of owners. Lets say the Chinese tycoon decides to pull the plug tomorrow...not you, not me, not anyone else but him and high management there could know what could happen.

Just like the Hollywood transition. Yes, Sportingbet its not the best sportsbook management company but some of their affiliates, like BetUSA, manage to score a better rating because of the individual touch their management is able to supply. However no one could have expected the mess that took place in the aftermath of the transition.

On the other hand you will always have players testing newer operations. Its not about the operations themselves, and certainly the stress is not worth the ads dollars, but its about the players. Its about the possibility to intervene when things go south.

One thing we both strongly abhor is seeing players getting stiffed.

One way to avoid it is to recommend the best books. With very little differences your recommended list and my top 20 books provide players with an indication of which are the best and safest operations out there.

The other way is to warn players about outright scams. Your database is by far the best available out there today. We are working hard to catch up and reasonably have over 500 rated books by the end of this month.

Then we have the biggest difference, the rookie project. As you know we make no mystery that newer operations represent a greater risk. There is a pretty clear disclaimer in that respect.

The way I see it is that a number of players will always end up with smaller operations. If we there is some sort of problem we have better leverage to step to the plate.

This betonstars thing is unfortunately very unique. I knew these guys were trying to sell a month ago, while they were still processing scattered payments.

I tried, repeatedly, to approach them and arrange the best deal for the players. The answer was always the same: we are not selling.

Then, all of the sudden and out of the blue they called me and told me we want to sell.

As you and I know the strongest asset a book has is goodwill. Theirs was very low, but I did have two parties ready.

These guys first said yes, then changed their minds, then asked for more money. It was unbelievable. They were jeopardizing closed deals like nothing happened. I believe you can understand and appreciate my frustration in having to witness the unthinkable.

Despite all odds, despite the previous demises, despite these idiots and their behaviours I still found someone willing to step to the plate.

There are 31 players in there. On a first count I wrongly said 2were referred by my site. In reality there are 6 referred by my site, 25 from other sources.

I'm working hard to save all 31, regardless of where they came from.

My point is that if bostars would have been just another mickey mouse book out there very few, maybe a handfull of these players could have saved their balances.

Luckily for them their fate will be different.

[SBR_John]

Do you ever get writers cramp? If so, one solution might be writing a little less.

I will let you have the last word Roberto.

My last word is if you continue to promote dangerous books more bad things will happen, more players will be hurt.

Good luck.

[Bill Dozer]

*************** was a banned word here because mods were removing Jay's links from day 1. One thing Jay was allowed to do was respond to criticism and posters were allowed to criticize. There isn't a thread in this forum that allowed BOS to promote. Interacting freely is part of posting.

Most of the books TOW hangs don't qualify for likely-to-succeed or even likely-not-to-stiff. It's one thing to feature books like BetEd and 777Rock that had some sort of history or some type of reference in the gaming business but most of these books don't. They don't have banking resources, the staff, the know-how, or the marketing capital to move away from low-volume high-risk booking, to have any business taking bets. These are things you can feel out on the first phone call to ownership.

Take Bet4Aces. Will they get past this current issue? I personally guess that they will but this is another scary situation for players.

I think the rookie program is batting about 70% for failures, bailouts or acquisitions. The industry gap is widening and the big boys aren't going to bother with smaller sites. Does that mean forums should hang risky ops to cover overhead?

The "safety program" is nice for the local poster but doesn't do much for the sheep. TOW's mailing list gets spammed as part of the ad deal and these books end up with organic SE exposure. Its gotten ugly.

Here is SBR's info on BOS dating back to when they bought the domain.

Results 1 - 16 of 16 News Wire results for the search term: BETONSTARS

6/1/2006 8:40:00 PM
BETONSTARS(SBR rating F-) - The proposed deal to rescue this failed sportsbook has fallen through according to their previous promoter; TheOnlineWire. While BETONSTARS was operating, management as well as their promoter publicly criticized SBR for their poor SBR rating and SBR’s skepticism that they were not simply another scam. The BETONSTARS failure is yet another reminder that weak sportsbooks and scams abound in this unregulated industry. Players are advised to carefully research a sportsbook before sending money.
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5/14/2006 11:30:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS (SBR rating F-) players hoping for bailout offer. The sportsbook has been off-line for over one week and delinquent on withdrawals for over a month. SBR has not received confirmation of a payout since our previous report on 5/05/06. The sportsbook has shut down communication with players. SBR to management’s personal phone lines have not been answered.
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5/5/2006 6:46:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS (SBR rating F) unable to process withdrawal requests; still accepting deposits. The sportsbook tells SBR they expect to have a resolution to their financial problems by Tuesday when they will either be purchased, or allow another sportsbook to take over player accounts. BOS has been unable to fulfill substantial withdrawal requests over the last three weeks but some players have been receiving partial payment. Accounting states that they are prioritizing payouts by the amount the client has deposited.

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3/17/2006 7:11:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D) continues to struggle to keep merchant accounts funded. The sportsbook relocated to its new office on 2/08/06 and management assured SBR that this would be the company’s turning point. BETONSTARS has since experienced persistent technical difficulties and players continue to report having to wait for their withdrawals. Customer service manager, John, recently left the company to join Bet4Aces(SBR rating D-).

Player: "I have been having a problem getting paid by BETONSTARS. I requested a $2500 Neteller payout on Monday (13th) and have yet to receive it. I called them back on Tues and Wed to re-request the payout and they said that I was "first on their list" to receive money but at this time they had no money in their Neteller account. They said they were waiting on funds to clear. Anyway, I waited Thurs and Fri, even placing a $1000 on Fri night (and losing). I just called to check the progress of my withdrawl and they said the customer service department was closed but they could process it for me and I should get it Monday (they didn’t say why it hadn’t been processed on Thurs or Fri). I will let you know what happens but I have a bad feeling about this. This is the first time I have ever used a Sportsbook of questionable reputation and I have learned my lesson. I don’t know if you have had any other complaints recently, but I don’t want anyone else to go through what I have gone through so I thought I should let you know."
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2/27/2006 11:52:00 AM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D) off-line since Friday; SBR visits office. SBR has verified that BETONSTARS is staffed and is taking wagers. Management tells SBR that their IQ-L software service was discontinued on Friday and they are in the process of implementing ASI’s software package. The sportsbook is unable to process payouts during this down time. Players can reach customer service by calling 1-800-799-6353.
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2/8/2006 8:09:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) phones and livechat down during office move. The migration began two days after the Super Bowl which is the most common time for a failing book to pull the plug. The fast-busy phone signal had players concerned. BETONSTARS has allowed SBR to visit and take pictures during the setup of their new office.
The sportsbook blames nervous clients for emptying its Neteller merchant account. One player has been waiting for a $1500 Neteller payout since the weekend. Management tells SBR that they expect to have a funded Neteller account, as well as a working phone system tomorrow.
2/9/2006 (3:37:57 PM) Update: Player paid in full.

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1/30/2006 11:46:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) processes withdrawals for two players who have both waited over one week; the sportsbook reports being up to date on all withdrawals. SBR will continue to monitor pending requests and confirm payments with players as the sportsbook talks of moving their office prior to Super Bowl weekend.
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1/28/2006 2:57:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) tells SBR they are waitng for a $10,000 deposit to clear its Neteller merchant account in order to pay slow-paid bettors. When asked how they planned to pay players beyond this relatively small sum, management replied: "We will have enough left over to pay other players". BETONSTARS players now fear that the book will rely on a profitable Super Bowl from the few clients that remain. SBR and slow-paid players were originally assured that this latest wire would clear on January 24th.
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1/18/2006 6:00:00 PM
BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) confirms the SBR report that popular lead man, Jay, has been terminated. BETONSTARS admits making mistakes but vows to clear up all slow pays.
http://sbrforum.com/showthread.php?t=5079&page=2
Ownership writes SBR:
You guys do not make it easy but I do appreciate the pressure because you guys watch each others backs. I respect that. I am here and I am rock solid. All I have is my word. I thank all of you for all comments good or bad. The truth is our best weapon as well as what we do to fix these kinds of problems. I look after my players and will NEVER fail to pay someone...
JOhnny

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1/18/2006 3:13:00 PM
BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) Promising payments to some players and paying smaller players. Public pressure helping to accelerate payment plans from troubled BETONSTARS.

One player reports to SBR:
"I spoke with the owner of BETONSTARS - Johnny. He told me that he had not been properly informed of the coversations I had had with Jay, and that he would personally put an end to this problem. I am taking his promise at face value.
He assured me that I would be paid out entirely by this coming Monday - $X,XXX this Friday and the remainder on Monday...."

BETONSTARS manager known as "Jay" has said to be "out". SBR sources say he has left the country.
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1/17/2006 7:36:00 PM
BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) players nervously trying to get payouts. This sportsbook was heavily promoted by a slippery outfit and their associates that specialize in promoting new and dangerous sportsbooks. Sources in Costa Rica claim they are looking for a buyer. TOW, BETONSTARS main promoter, had earlier reported that BETONSTARS management had left, that their Neteller bank account was empty and that poor business decissions had hurt them. Less than two hours after making the statement TOW said their report was completely false and that the book was actually very healthy. Most industry observers have speculated that this book is now just limping along looking for a bailout partner.

Player writes SBR:
"Jay, (BETONSTARS General Manager)
I have written and called you almost a dozen times and have not heard back from you. We had agreed almost 2 weeks ago that you would process payouts for my money as soon as I met the 20x rollover requirement.
I continued to bet as per your assurance and met that rollover 8 days ago. I have not received a dime.
You have sent me explicit emails stating that the accounting department would process a withrawal "ASAP" last Wednesday, but no such thing was ever done."

Players can avoid unscrupulous promoters and high risk sportsbooks by joining only those sportsbooks with an SBR rating of B+ or better.

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1/14/2006 8:06:00 AM
BETONSTARS(SBR rating D-) It has been reported that there has been a management change and slow pays.
The sportsbook’s main advertiser, who specializes in promoting high risk sportsbooks, reported that BETONSTARS was slow paying, had an empty Neteller bank account, that their manager had left and that they had made some "seriously bad business decisions". Later the promoter retracted the statement claiming it was a "misunderstanding" and that the sports book was fine. We can not tell what is true and what is spin at this point.

Players are strongly advised to not have ANY money on deposit at new sportsbooks.
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12/24/2005 7:01:00 PM
BETONSTARS(SBR rating D+) claims slow paying was because they bought advertising and they were temporarily out of money. Their new advertisers have swung into action. MajorWager complained SBR was picking on the slow pay sportsbook. Even TheOffshoreWire, who is also on the BETONSTARS payroll, complained that SBR was "..crucifying a young book for a glitch" (glitch = slow pay).

Players should use extreme caution with new sportsbooks and books that have not aquired enough business sense to know that the sportsbook must pay the players first and then pay their advertisers.

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12/23/2005 12:31:00 PM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D+) player waiting since Tuesday morning for $2500 Neteller payout. Player states he was told Neteller was unfunded and that they "are waiting for a check to clear". He was promised his funds on each of the past two days, and is hoping to receive his withdrawal before accounting closes for the holiday.
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12/16/2005 4:57:00 AM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: BETONSTARS(SBR rating D+) freezes player’s account for 7 days before removing $500 in earned bonus funds and sending remaining balance. BETONSTARS tells the player he was committing fraud by wagering on odds that have, or were about to change. The sportsbook initially threatened the player over livechat, saying they may keep winnings, as well as the awarded bonus incentive. BETONSTARS has since removed Rule #2 from their site which states, "All fraudulent activities and wise actions in the account will result as account closure and loss of funds." SBR to inquire with management about the confiscation of bonus funds.

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8/19/2005 2:26:00 AM
SBR Bill Dozer reports: Wagering department of defunct Changeabet (SBR rating F-) opens new sportsbook BETONSTARS (not rated). BETONSTARS is a sister book of ScoreonSports (SBR rating D-) which had previously introduced itself to players as part of the Changeabet family of sportsbooks.
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[TOW]

Dear Bill,

Sorry if I come back on the subject. This will be the last time.

Interacting is something, promoting is something else. I am pretty sure this thread Betonstars is more "promotive" than "interactive".

As I said, we can all make mistakes. One of the abilities is to have the balls to admit them.

As much as we made the mistake to positively evaluate Betonstars as a prospect candidate for the rookie project, I think it was a mistake to allow Jay88 to "work" sbr forum the way he did.

Denying he worked your forum is probably the worst way to go about this saga.