[Deuce]

Explain to me your logic with only 300k workers being harmed if the auto industry bellys up. Explain to me what happens to the tier 1, 2, and 3 suppliers as well. Thanks, ace.

[Panic]

Is he around, Deuce? He may not be here right now.

[Cloak & Dagger]

your mom and dad get taxed by Obama?

[mathdotcom]

I agree with you on the pt you're trying to make, deuce, but I'll take you up on the issue of whether saving auto industry is worthwhile. Do you think we should have saved the textile industries in Europe when they decided to get outsourced to 3rd world countries? Do you think we should have saved any nike factories that went abroad? The government has been keeping the auto industry afloat for too long. It's gotta end sometime.

[mathdotcom]

I also feel sorry for bank tellers being replaced by ATMs, the washboard industry collapsing with the invention of the washing machine, and horse raisers who got phucked by the invention of the car.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by mathdotcom

I agree with you on the pt you're trying to make, deuce, but I'll take you up on the issue of whether saving auto industry is worthwhile. Do you think we should have saved the textile industries in Europe when they decided to get outsourced to 3rd world countries? Do you think we should have saved any nike factories that went abroad? The government has been keeping the auto industry afloat for too long. It's gotta end sometime.

Yes I agree on what you're getting at here, ace. I also believe they get one shot to get their shit together with some type of plan. The plan must be executed to success. The biggest test is clearing this year. Once they get through this year they will be ok. I have talked to many auto workers, my bros gf's dad is an exec at GM. He said this year is key. If they make it out next year looks promising.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by mathdotcom

I also feel sorry for bank tellers being replaced by ATMs, the washboard industry collapsing with the invention of the washing machine, and horse raisers who got phucked by the invention of the car.

Pal, you're getting off topic. We're talking 1 in 10 being unemployed here.

[durito]

A BK will simply allow for a reorganization in which many people keep their jobs. It's not like tons aren't going to loose them anyway. I think that's a better alternative to throwing more money at it.

Tell me why you are in favor of this "socialism" but rail against it otherwise?

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by durito

A BK will simply allow for a reorganization in which many people keep their jobs. It's not like tons aren't going to loose them anyway. I think that's a better alternative to throwing more money at it.

Tell me why you are in favor of this "socialism" but rail against it otherwise?

Because this decision better the life quality of the entire country. Doesn't help the lower tier of the population while bringing down the upper and middle class.

[daggerkobe]

How many times do we have to go over this again?????

You claimed that if the Big 3 went bellyup, it would lead to the "Greatest Depression"

And I responded with "Only 2.5 million would be laid off, 1.67% of the US workforce"

You then said ""It's 25%!!!! 1 in 10 worker would lose their job!!!!!!!"

I said "Of course that's what the Michitgan delegates would say to get a bailout..... prove it with an economist report"

And u ignored it.

Then u said "3 million factory workers alone would lose jobs at Big 3"

And I said "But only 300k assembly line workers work for Big 3"

Then u created this thread.

[durito]

Originally Posted by Deuce

Because this decision better the life quality of the entire country. Doesn't help the lower tier of the population while bringing down the upper and middle class.

How does this help the upper class?

[mathdotcom]

You're assuming all of the people who get laid off will

a) be laid off at the exact same time
b) will not be able to find other types of work

Admittedly there will be some guys who only screwed steering wheels their whole lives and don't have many transferable skills. But all of the 2nd/3rd tier people associated with the auto industry will be fine. Any secretaries, accountants, lawyers, janitors, etc. will find similar work elsewhere.

The alternative is to tax the rest of America to help pay for these guys' paychecks until the end of time. It'd be easier to use that money to re-train workers to finally end this vicious cycle. There is no way the American auto industry will ever be competitive. Foreign producers have too much of an advantage, so just give in to the inevitable.

[mathdotcom]

Subsidizing autoworkers isn't free. It hurts all non-autoworkers whose taxes will either be raised to pay for it, or will lose out on other public programs because funds will be diverted to Michigan.

Or alternatively, you could close the border to foreign cars. Then it hurts the millions of people who enjoy cheaper, better quality foreign cars.

There's no win win here.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by daggerkobe

How many times do we have to go over this again?????

You claimed that if the Big 3 went bellyup, it would lead to the "Greatest Depression"

And I responded with "Only 2.5 million would be laid off, 1.67% of the US workforce"

You then said ""It's 25%!!!! 1 in 10 worker would lose their job!!!!!!!"

I said "Of course that's what the Michitgan delegates would say to get a bailout..... prove it with an economist report"

And u ignored it.

Then u said "3 million factory workers alone would lose jobs at Big 3"

And I said "But only 300k assembly line workers work for Big 3"

Then u created this thread.

300k assembly line workers are the least of the issue here ace. Its the tier 1 and 2 suppliers that will get buried. If you think 3 companies won't matter if they go under, try 2100 others going under as well. The big 3 effect so many in America I don't think you realize that.

1-10 will lose their job. Have you done some research or are you going by what FaggerKobe thinks himself?

Trickle Down Effects of Letting U.S. Automakers Go Bankrupt


The U.S. Government just handed out 700 Billion Dollars bailing out Wall Street, and now the major U.S. automakers are headed to Washington hat in hand asking for the same treatment.

Why, you ask?

Because they’re too large, too inefficient, and have essentially gotten their collective butts kicked by foreign automakers since the 1980s.

Anyone who lived through the 80s was introduced to the frightening concept that a foreign country – in this case Japan – was gaining a strong economic foothold on our soil by out-competing our nation’s leading automakers. We also awoke to the very real concept that our vehicles were not considered the gold standard as we had been led to believe.

How did foreign automakers find such success? The experts would likely debate the specifics, but the Cliff Notes answer would be:

• Productivity - more efficient manufacturing methodology.
• Reliability – foreign cars had fewer maintenance issues after purchase.
• Operating costs – lower maintenance costs and improved gas mileage.

Now, fast forward to the current economic crisis and ponder this question: Did the Big Three learn their lesson from history’s past?

Apparently not, considering the size of the hole they have dug for themselves.

With the current downturn in the U.S. economy, and the subsequent tightening of the credit markets, the Big Three automakers once again find themselves in a quagmire. But this time, they’re not looking to beat the competition by redesigning a classic American muscle car or run a nationwide clearance sale using zero percent financing incentives.

This time, they are fighting for their very existence, or at the very least, to stave off bankruptcy.
Regardless of whether we the taxpayers feel the automakers should go bankrupt or not, we should begin to consider the potential fallout of letting them go bankrupt, or worse, permanently out of business.

The Trickle Down Effects of U.S. Automakers going out of business

1. The Big Three shut down manufacturing plants. Hundreds of thousands of Big Three auto workers will potentially lose their jobs. Not just blue collar jobs, but white collar office workers as well. This includes everything from main line assembly workers, accountants, finance experts, and goes all the way to the lowly janitor.

2. Demand for replacement parts plummets. Auto parts suppliers cut their work force in response to lower number of cars being produced.

3. Reduced need for auto financing. Fewer people can buy new cars due to tightening credit market. Auto financing, from auto specific lenders like GMAC or even the friendly neighborhood bank, see reduced profits from the lower volume of new car loans being written.

4. Unemployed workers begin a downward debt spiral. Former employees begin to default on personal debts. Home foreclosures, credit card defaults, and auto repossessions begin to increase.

5. Local businesses dependent upon auto industry related income also decline. Businesses that sprang up around the manufacturing plants will see business decline due to fewer paying customers, and could potentially go out of business themselves.

6. Cities and towns see devaluation in local real estate market. With an increase in foreclosures, and more homes on the market than people are willing to buy, the law of supply and demand drive home prices lower with each passing month.

7. Local and state governments begin see lower tax revenues. Income and property taxes are the lifeblood of any local government’s tax revenues, so as the two largest forms of incomes begin to dwindle, preplanned budgets begin to see dramatic scale backs in funding.

All this may sound like “doom & gloom” rhetoric, but the early warning signs are now becoming visible. The Bush administration has supposedly rebuffed General Motors and Chrysler in their attempts for a government funded merger, and auto parts supplier ArvinMeritor recently cut 7% of its workforce due to “difficult market conditions”.

Even state governors have gotten into the act by proactively lobbying Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke specifically to take “immediate action” to ease the potential shockwave of massive job losses. Not surprisingly, state governments see the potential writing on the wall, and are taking as much of an active role as the current situation allows.

Get moving on loans for the auto industry

The Bush administration should stop dragging its feet on financial assistance for the domestic automobile industry. The Big Three automakers stand on the edge of disaster. The government has a compelling interest as well as an obligation to keep them from toppling.

The auto industry accounts for between one in seven and one in 10 jobs in America. It also represents a major piece of its industrial capacity, no small consideration if the nation suddenly has to shift to turning out the machines of war, as it did in World War II.

If a significant portion of the industry disappears, the budding recession will certainly deepen and a recovery will be made much harder.

Automakers are pleading with the government to deliver on its promise of $25 billion in federal loans to retool their operations for building fuel efficient vehicles and to keep them afloat until the anticipated recovery in 2010.

Both presidential candidates have expressed support for the loans, which were committed by Congress a year ago when automakers agreed to spend $85 billion to transform to a more fuel efficient fleet. There is no justification for continuing to delay the promised money.

General Motors Corp. wants $5 billion to $10 billion in loans to help pay for its absorption of Chrysler. Cash-starved GM sees the move as a way to trim its operating costs and take capacity out of the bloated auto industry. Cerberus, the private equity fund that owns Chrysler, sees the sale to GM as a way out of operating a troubled car company.

We can't say if this is the best deal for the industry. But we do ask that all options for saving Chrysler be exhausted first.

Chrysler's demise would eliminate 19,000 to 35,000 jobs, a large portion of them in Michigan. The loss of these jobs, as well as the Chrysler headquarters and its dealer network, would put Michigan even deeper in an economic hole.

What hasn't been fully explained is whether there's another option that would preserve both GM and Chrysler, or at least a larger portion of the two companies.

Renault-Nissan offered to purchase a 20 percent stake in Chrysler, but Cerberus prefers a deal with GM, and talks with the French-Japanese automaker reportedly have stopped. In the end, there may be no way to save Chrysler.

But saving any automaker becomes more difficult the longer the government waits to act. Taxpayers have a compelling interest in preserving the maximum number of automotive jobs.

The key is not to attach too many strings to the aid that could hamstring the automakers from being profitable and competitive. Obama wants to double federal aid to the automakers to $50 billion, but told NBC News that it should be focused on "the high-efficiency cars of the future."

"The government's not going to help if you continue down a strategy that is entirely relying on building big gas guzzlers," he added.

The first $25 billion in federal aid is supposed to help automakers retool their factories to make more gas-stingy vehicles to meet higher fuel economy standards. And the automakers should follow through with that. But with the price of gasoline having plummeted to as low as $2.10 a gallon in Metro Detroit from $4, consumers have a much lower incentive to buy smaller, fuel-efficient cars.

If the government imposes overly strict aid rules, such as unrealistic fuel-efficient vehicle production quotas, they could deliver more business to foreign automakers, which make gas-guzzlers.

The Bush administration should move immediately to begin the flow of the promised loan money already approved by Congress and assess how much more may be needed.

[Cloak & Dagger]

Originally Posted by Cloak & Dagger

your mom and dad get taxed by Obama?

they let you out of prison?

too bad nobody knows the password

[mathdotcom]

you didnt address our points

[durito]

Do you realize that the company does not fold under Chapter 11?

Ever notice how the airlines do it all the time and keep flying?

You can't have it both ways.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by durito

How does this help the upper class?

Because it keeps them employed. It keep their businesses afloat being able to pay their workers etc. Trickle down effect.

[goldengoat]

autoworkers are overpaid

cut their wages or go find another job

[durito]

Originally Posted by Deuce

Because it keeps them employed. It keep their businesses afloat being able to pay their workers etc. Trickle down effect.

Keeping poor people employed also helps the upper class as it keeps them from turning to crime.

Providing health care for people who cannot afford it, reduces prices for people who can. Do you have any idea how much $$$ is spent on ER visits for uninsured people with emergent conditions that would have cost a fraction of the amount if they had access to a regular doctor previously. Eliminate that and you lower everyone's costs.

Congrats Deuce, you are a liberal.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by goldengoat

autoworkers are overpaid

cut their wages or go find another job

Agreed and they have the most they can. UAW is burying them single handedly. Toyota, Honda etc are in a better situation because the government pays their health care. 1k from each car goes to American workers of the big 3. One of the major money issues. They have better health care then most in America.

[daggerkobe]

Why don't u post the link to the blogs u posted?

Again, post economic study stating 1 in 10 not angry bloggers repeating the same rhetoric.

The 2.5M takes into account the trickle down jobs. But they would eventually be absorbed by other car manufacturers with US plants such as Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. as their sales pick up and more workers are needed.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by durito

Keeping poor people employed also helps the upper class as it keeps them from turning to crime.

Providing health care for people who cannot afford it, reduces prices for people who can. Do you have any idea how much $$$ is spent on ER visits for uninsured people with emergent conditions that would have cost a fraction of the amount if they had access to a regular doctor previously. Eliminate that and you lower everyone's costs.

Congrats Deuce, you are a liberal.

I don't agree with me being a liberal. I don't see what the liberals gain from lowering everyone so we're "equal". You get what you give it's that simple.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by daggerkobe

Why don't u post the link to the blogs u posted?

The 2.5M takes into account the trickle down jobs. But they would eventually be absorbed by other car manufacturers with US plants such as Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. as their sales pick up and more workers are needed.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...ON01/811020301

http://www.businesspundit.com/trickl...s-go-bankrupt/

[goldengoat]

i have family that work auto that admit they are overpaid

everyone knew it couldn't last. they were just asking for it being so greedy with the wages. lots of people wanted to work there because it was high wages for not so skilled labor although there was skilled positions as well.

it doesn't make sense to overpay for a job that can easily be filled at a lesser cost and with little difficulty/training time. especially if the factory goes overseas.

they got what they could get for themselves without thinking about the next generation.

[purecarnagge]

you can either pay for people to work. Eventually get repaid.

or you can pay for them to go to unemployment etc etc...and bring the economy down for 10 years.


Here is what i've heard. I'm not saying I'm spot on with the fact here...

about 1.3 million would lose jobs. About 2.9 million people would lose jobs as the result of the loss of income of those 1.3 million.

Plus the rest of the auto industry would be deeply effected..suppliers...dealerships...fina ncials...etc etc..

[Boner_18]

"belly up" and reorganization bankruptcy under chapter 11 are two different things.

[daggerkobe]

Millions of people that buy Big 3 cars and trucks annually aren't going to stop buying cars. They will instead buy Hondas, Toyotas, Hyundais, etc. The GM factory that closed will eventually build Accords, the Ford dealer that closed will open as a Toyota dealer. The Chrysler part supplier will start making Hyundai parts. The banks will continue to make auto loans.

This doom and gloom is nothing more than rhethoric from Detroit's chicken littles.

[losturmarbles]

unless the union contracts are voided, they will have to file bankruptcy regardless if they get corporate welfare.

[nosniboR11]

its the unions that need to be fixed, they need to file for bankruptcy and get rid of the damn unions. Thats the problem