[Thor4140]

Originally Posted by BuddyBear

This thread is starting to get out of control. Let's not confuse Jews with Israel. Just like we wouldn't want to confuse "Americans' with "George W. Bush." When we are talking about "Israel" we are referring to a foregin government and their policies and relationship with other states. We should refrain from talking about Jews in any derogatory or inciteful manner as that is inherently anti-semitic and should be reserved for Klan meetings. We can talk about the relationship of American Jewry with Israel and lobbying efforts and what not, but let's avoid making any sort of hurtful comment (i.e. 2pac). Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation being spread on here (i.e. Kerfuffle and coldhardfacts).

I am a little busy right now but I will make some more important insights and observations later on this week on this very subject. Let's not put this thread away just yet. It's important we continue to confront these isseus and focus our energies on educating one another on this critical topic. I know this can be a difficult topic to talk about but I admire the patience and courtesy that posters are showing on here (i.e. Thor4140).

Will be back later....

Buddy this is the game they play. The anti semi card or saying a person hates jews. It stifles debate and it turns it ugly. I say something and all the sudden my words are spun like im attacking the Jewish people. This game they use is old and tired but you have to defend yourself someway.

[BuddyBear]

Unfortunately this has become the way many Jews react to serious discussions about Israel. Rather than lively debate, the anti-semite card gets pulled out or the let's talk about other coutries card. Why should we talk about Syria??? Everyone knows that Syria is a garbage country and does not pretend to be a democracy. Why should we talk about China? Everyone knows it commits human rights violations. If Israel wants to be a democracy, it should be held to much higher standards than other countries. The goal for Israeli supporters is to get people to shut up. They know that based on facts alone they could never persuade anyone to their particular point of view...rather than debate, knowing they would lose any sensible and fair debate, the alternative is to use intimidation tactics and bribe people. At the same time, they enlist the support of dim-witted groups like the religius right to contine their charade.

I'd be willing to bet anything Kerfuffle is probalby a liberal guy or holds some progressive views, but defending Israel has forced him to become conservative over the years and hold opinions he probably normally would never hold. The reality is, if the American people actually knew what was going on they would do a complete 180. Sadly, the corporate news media withholds criticism of Israel and we all know the current state of the American Congress right now as it has become indentured to the Israel Lobby.

Unfortunately for supporters of Israel, this isn't a friendly forum of "American Congress members."

One of the funniest quotes I've ever come accross in my life was when Bill Clinton, who is a well-known draft dodger said this:


Bill Clinton - who avoided serving in Vietnam - says he would take up arms and "fight and die" for Israel if Iraq attacks the Jewish state.
"If Iraq came across the Jordan River, I would grab a rifle and get in the trench and fight and die," the ex-president said to wild applause at a Jewish fund-raiser in Toronto.

Imagine, anyone believing such nonsense.....

[coldhardfacts]

Originally Posted by Thor4140

Get off their land okay. How is occupying working for us? You occupy someones land you are gonna get screwed with. If the people in Iraq came over here and laid down the laws and we had to go along with them we would be suicide bombing. Israel gov't offered a plan to Arafat and all i heard from our press was how could have Arafat turned it down. Listening to our press you would have thought it was the greatest deal in the world. When i heard the other side the deal consist of Isreal giving back the land but owning the streets. Who the hell would take a deal like that? Nothing like this was talked about by our corporate bought press. Keep on buying the bull our press keeps on shoveling. Its entertaining TV unfortunately its very misleading. Some can see a con job a mile away. Some have trouble seeing one if it bit them in the face. We both want peace but our Gov't don't.

Whom are you suggesting should get off who's land? Sir, instead of getting all of your misinformation from the BBC, I suggest you do a little reading about the origins of the middle east conflict, and maybe you'll understand the origins and history of the conflict.

Under the original British mandate of Palestine (following the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI) the Jews were promised all of the land west of the Jordan River as a homeland. Jews have lived in the area continuously for 3700 years, and as the Zionist movement gained support in the late 1800s and early 1900s, Jews began legally purchasing land and moving to the area. The British reneged on the orignial deal (something I'm sure you'll never hear on the BBC), and in 1921 created the Hashemite-run kingdom of "Transjordan" out of 80% of the original mandate. ALL of this territory was closed to Jewish settlement. There was never any call for a Palestinian state, even though Palestinians far outnumbered - and continue to far outnumber - Hashemites.

After WWII and the holocaust, the UN further partitioned the remaining 20% of the original mandate. The Jews were given three disconnected pieces of land along the Meditteranean and the Sinai desert - 10% of what they were promised in the original mandate. They were given access to Jerusalem, which was supposed to remain an international city under international control. Nevertheless, they accepted the partition, but the Arabs did not, and immediately invaded the newly formed country of Israel. Even after their defeat, the Arabs made no attempt to establish a Palestinian homeland. Instead, Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza strip.

The Arabs have been at war with Israel since - attacking them (or preparing to attack them) in 1967 and again in 1973, each time defeated, and each time losing land in the process, and expecting the Israelis to relinquish it without any quid pro quo whatsoever. (In fact, the Israelis offered to give back all territories captured in the 1967 war in return for a peace agreement from the Arab states. This offer was unanimously rejected by the Arab summit at Khartoum.)

I have no idea - and I expect you don't either - what you mean by "giving back the land but owning the streets"???? I do know that the concessions the Israelis were willing to make were far greater than anything that was being asked of the Palestinians.

[coldhardfacts]

Originally Posted by BuddyBear

Unfortunately this has become the way many Jews react to serious discussions about Israel. Rather than lively debate, the anti-semite card gets pulled out or the let's talk about other coutries card. Why should we talk about Syria??? Everyone knows that Syria is a garbage country and does not pretend to be a democracy. Why should we talk about China? Everyone knows it commits human rights violations. If Israel wants to be a democracy, it should be held to much higher standards than other countries. The goal for Israeli supporters is to get people to shut up. They know that based on facts alone they could never persuade anyone to their particular point of view...rather than debate, knowing they would lose any sensible and fair debate, the alternative is to use intimidation tactics and bribe people. At the same time, they enlist the support of dim-witted groups like the religius right to contine their charade.

I'd be willing to bet anything Kerfuffle is probalby a liberal guy or holds some progressive views, but defending Israel has forced him to become conservative over the years and hold opinions he probably normally would never hold. The reality is, if the American people actually knew what was going on they would do a complete 180. Sadly, the corporate news media withholds criticism of Israel and we all know the current state of the American Congress right now as it has become indentured to the Israel Lobby.

Unfortunately for supporters of Israel, this isn't a friendly forum of "American Congress members."

One of the funniest quotes I've ever come accross in my life was when Bill Clinton, who is a well-known draft dodger said this:


Bill Clinton - who avoided serving in Vietnam - says he would take up arms and "fight and die" for Israel if Iraq attacks the Jewish state.
"If Iraq came across the Jordan River, I would grab a rifle and get in the trench and fight and die," the ex-president said to wild applause at a Jewish fund-raiser in Toronto.

Imagine, anyone believing such nonsense.....

I realize it is well beyond your realm of understanding to believe that anyone could actually look at the facts on the ground and conclude that the Israelis, while not perfect, have the overwhelming moral high ground.

Your insistence on looking at this issue from a simplistic "liberal" vs. "conservative" perspective underscores your biases.

[Kerfuffle]

Good try coldhardfacts.

Unfortunately, you are writing it in a forum that Bill Dozer has allowed to become one of the most ferocious anti-Israel, anti-Jewish havens you will find on the net.

You are writing your words to some of the thickest anti-semitic drips you will ever encounter here at this forum.

[BuddyBear]

Originally Posted by Kerfuffle

Good try coldhardfacts.

Unfortunately, you are writing it in a forum that Bill Dozer has allowed to become one of the most ferocious anti-Israel, anti-Jewish havens you will find on the net.

You are writing your words to some of the thickest anti-semitic drips you will ever encounter here at this forum.

It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Any criticism of Israel is met with a swift designation of anti-semitic. Doesn't this get old? How many times have I critcized the Arab countries? Show me one instance in which I have attacked Jews as a group, Jewish life, Jewish culture, Jewish history etc...

Enough of your nonsense, let the big boys debate ths one.....

[Kerfuffle]

There should be no thread on this subject, YET AGAIN.

It is not Jewish supporters who are starting Jewish related threads, YET AGAIN.

It is the people who are obsessed to the nth degree with this topic who are regurgitating it YET AGAIN.

But you will not be allowed to run amuck and spew out nonsense.

All right buddybear, I will back off on you and say the jury is still out on whether you are virulently anti-semitic and just playing it up to appear neutral, or truly are neutral.

[coldhardfacts]

Originally Posted by Kerfuffle

There should be no thread on this subject, YET AGAIN.

It is not Jewish supporters who are starting Jewish related threads, YET AGAIN.

It is the people who are obsessed to the nth degree with this topic who are regurgitating it YET AGAIN.

But you will not be allowed to run amuck and spew out nonsense.

All right buddybear, I will back off on you and say the jury is still out on whether you are virulently anti-semitic and just playing it up to appear neutral, or truly are neutral.

I will say, it is rather curious how BuddyBear, Thor, and others have no problems with Jews, or others for that matter, AS LONG AS THEY AGREE WITH THEM on the subject of the middle east.

But if one dares to have a different (i.e., politically incorrect) opinion that concedes that the Israelis somehow have a justifiable case, LOOK OUT. You are labeled as being racist, unpatriotic, ignorant, bought and paid for by "the Jews", a religious fanatic, a warmonger, or some other derogatory denotation.

[noyb]

Originally Posted by coldhardfacts

But if one dares to have a different (i.e., politically incorrect) opinion that concedes that the Israelis somehow have a justifiable case, LOOK OUT. You are labeled as being racist, .

that's funny you should mention that, while Kerfuffle is accusing everybody who dares to have a different (i.e., politically incorrect) opinion that concedes that the Palestinians somehow have a justifiable case, of being a racist (and a lot of other things).

[coldhardfacts]

Originally Posted by noyb

that's funny you should mention that, while Kerfuffle is accusing everybody who dares to have a different (i.e., politically incorrect) opinion that concedes that the Palestinians somehow have a justifiable case, of being a racist (and a lot of other things).

Funny how one sees what they want to see. No question there is some name calling on both sides, regrettably. But read all of the posts, from the original on down, and see which side is trying to discuss the facts, and which is basing their argument almost ENTIRELY on the old tried and true canards..i.e., "Jewish interests" controlling an "indentured and subservient congress", "media control", dual loyalty "neocons", "controlling Jews", "zionist crazies advocating genocide", "corporate controlled media", and perhaps the most disgusting, actually comparing Israel to the Soviet Union during the cold war, and wishing upon them the same fate as the Soviets. Virtually nothing, as is almost always the case, concerning the actual history of the conflict and the reasons the region is the mess that is.

If this thread goes on a bit longer I half expect to see some kind of reference to "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Which, by the way, is a best seller in the Arab world.

[Thor4140]

Originally Posted by Kerfuffle

Good try coldhardfacts.

Unfortunately, you are writing it in a forum that Bill Dozer has allowed to become one of the most ferocious anti-Israel, anti-Jewish havens you will find on the net.

You are writing your words to some of the thickest anti-semitic drips you will ever encounter here at this forum.

There you go again. Another pathetic attempt to gag people. Is this you Frankie Johnson?

[noyb]

Originally Posted by coldhardfacts

Funny how one sees what they want to see. No question there is some name calling on both sides, regrettably. But read all of the posts, from the original on down, and see which side is trying to discuss the facts, and which is basing their argument almost ENTIRELY on the old tried and true canards..i.e., "Jewish interests" controlling an "indentured and subservient congress", "media control", dual loyalty "neocons", "controlling Jews", "zionist crazies advocating genocide", "corporate controlled media", and perhaps the most disgusting, actually comparing Israel to the Soviet Union during the cold war, and wishing upon them the same fate as the Soviets. Virtually nothing, as is almost always the case, concerning the actual history of the conflict and the reasons the region is the mess that is.

If this thread goes on a bit longer I half expect to see some kind of reference to "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Which, by the way, is a best seller in the Arab world.

i entered this thread not so much because i have an opinion about the israeli-issue, the truth is problably in the middle like always. i do not have a problem with you voicing your opinion, and i do not have a problem with other posters voicing theirs. you both have your good points, altough some a bit more persuasive than others.

i do have a problem with people accusing others of being racists, anti-semitic, or whatever, because they criticize the state of israel. it kills every possible form of debate about the role of israel, if everyone who dares to voice his opinion is immediately called a jew-hater.
likewise, people calling critics of the palestine people racists and muslim-haters is just as bad, but i did not read anything like that in this thread, while whats-his-name seems to be going out of his way time after time to ask for the thread being removed, not to respond to the arguments being made (like you did do) to start using terms which are not suitable at all and were completely uncalled for.

i do feel the pro-israel group (especially in the media, at least in the country i live in) seems to have a lot of these guys, whose unfounded name-calling is doing more bad than good to the israeli cause, and really creates a lot of hostility among the majority of people who do not have a clear "black-or-white good-or-bad" -view on the israeli-problem.

[coldhardfacts]

Originally Posted by noyb

i entered this thread not so much because i have an opinion about the israeli-issue, the truth is problably in the middle like always. i do not have a problem with you voicing your opinion, and i do not have a problem with other posters voicing theirs. you both have your good points, altough some a bit more persuasive than others.

i do have a problem with people accusing others of being racists, anti-semitic, or whatever, because they criticize the state of israel. it kills every possible form of debate about the role of israel, if everyone who dares to voice his opinion is immediately called a jew-hater.
likewise, people calling critics of the palestine people racists and muslim-haters is just as bad, but i did not read anything like that in this thread, while whats-his-name seems to be going out of his way time after time to ask for the thread being removed, not to respond to the arguments being made (like you did do) to start using terms which are not suitable at all and were completely uncalled for.

i do feel the pro-israel group (especially in the media, at least in the country i live in) seems to have a lot of these guys, whose unfounded name-calling is doing more bad than good to the israeli cause, and really creates a lot of hostility among the majority of people who do not have a clear "black-or-white good-or-bad" -view on the israeli-problem.

Not sure what country you live in, but it's obviously not the USA. I watch the news, cable and regular broadcast, fairly regularly, and I can't remember a single instance when anyone ever called someone anti-semitic solely because they disagreed with Israel's policies.

I have, on the other hand, seen alot of defensiveness on the part of those who are critical, misinterpreting (intentionally or otherwise) the arguments of others as charges of anti-semitism - when no such charge or even insinuation was ever made.