[ShamsWoof10]

Originally Posted by pavyracer

If they attack with nuclear weapons unprovoked that will be the end of Israel as we know it now. Imagine 100,000 suicide bombers crossing the Israel border simultaneously from 4 hostile Arab countries and massacring the civilian population.

I believe some sh*t would happen but I don't think this would be one of them...

Originally Posted by pavyracer

This is another stupid arguement. Israel's airforce can't attack Iran effectively due to lack of bombers. You can't attack a country that is 1000 miles away with F-16's dumbass carrying only two 500 lb conventional bombs.

Putting an airforce general in charge does not mean you can attack a country by air and win a war. The russian made S-300 anticraft missiles Iran possesses are no match for the Israel F-16's. They can lock and destroy an aircraft from 100 miles apart. An S-300 missile brought down a stealth bomber during the campaign against Serbia in 1999 and was never revealed into the american public yet. Get your facts together because you sound naive and ignorant about military related matters.

ANOTHER BINGO!!!

[Kerfuffle]

Originally Posted by ritehook

And if Israel is a big arms exporter, and they are, why should we be giving then all that weaponry?

I thought I just gave you a viable response.

A billion and a half dollars of weaponry that MUST be purchased in the U.S. provides a lot of jobs and paychecks for Americans at MD, Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc.

By the way, Israel developed a fighter aircraft 10 or 15 years ago, the Lavi I think it was called. Three were built, and that is all. The U.S. told Israel if it produces this aircratft (in competition with US military aircraft), aid would be severely reduced. Israel stopped.

Explain that one.

[curious]

Originally Posted by pavyracer

This is another stupid arguement. Israel's airforce can't attack Iran effectively due to lack of bombers. You can't attack a country that is 1000 miles away with F-16's dumbass carrying only two 500 lb conventional bombs.

Really? Then I guess the Iraqi nuclear reactor just blew itself up in '81.

So, first you argue that the use of tactical nuclear weapons will cause 100,000 suicide bombers pouring into Israel, then you argue that they can't attack a country with planes that only carry two 500 lb conventional bombs.

You make such coherent arguments.

[ritehook]

Originally Posted by curious

a) Having been a patient in an Israeli military hospital and having met many members of the Israeli military, I find it hard to believe that the attack was deliberate. I know the procedures that the US military has to go through to fire a weapon at a sea going vessel, the Israelis follow similar procedures. Misidentifying a ship at sea? Perhaps. However, having been aboard US Navy vessels, I find it hard to believe that the sailors are lying. So, I researched this incident. The Israelis claim that they mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, El Quseir. The ships look nothing alike and the El Quseir is 1/2 the length and 1/4 the tonnage of the Liberty. After reading all the testimony, I have to conclude that this was a deliberate attack. The most damming evidence is that the Israelis used unmarked aircraft. That is the smoking gun.

b) I have long thought we should cut off aid to Israel. Mainly because it would force Israel to develop closer economic ties with its neighbors.

c) This is a harder one to swallow. Legislation that makes it through Congress does so because enough congressmen were bought off with favors for things they want, favors that will be cashed in later on. Whoever yields the most influence in terms of being able to delver on promises gets things done. Yes, the Israeli lobby is powerful. Are they all powerful? I have to say no to that one.

This question was phrased in a very biased way. If you instead asked "Does the Israel Lobby wield undo influence in Congress"? I would say yes they do. But TOTAL power? No, I do not believe that.
------------------------------------------

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with my point that Iran is taking actions which make Israel believe that Israel's survival as a nation is at stake and Israel will destroy Iran before they let Iran destroy them first.

Well, you are a militant for your views (as am I) but you at least don't parrot the party line.

Did I say TOTAL power? If so, an exagerration. Nobody really has total power, but "undue" may be too weak as well.,

They are potent. When AIPAC approaches a congreesman, it's a lot different than when Joe Schmo the farmer from his district comes acallin' Becasue Joe likely can't singlehandedly defeat the politico, while AIPAC often can (ask ex Sen Fulbright, Charles whathisname who carried the Reagan ball for the Saudis anti-missile aircraft, and the Illinois congressment who was so appalled at thier influence that he wrote the readworthy book, They Dare to Speak Out.

Are you of Jewish ethnicity? Many in Israel do not agree with their govt's aggressive tactics in the ME. When I want to read the truth about the ME, i pass on the NY Times, WAsh Post etc, and go instead to Haaretz, an excellent Israeli daily.

Many Amreican Jews are in the forefront of opposition to the Iraq misadventure. Ditto to the US govt's obeisance to the Lobby. Not only grouips like Amer Council for Judaism, Tikkum, some orthodox groups, but jouirnalists like Seymour Hersh, who pissed off leading neocon Richie Perle. Some of the better writers on antiwar.com of of Jewish ethicity.

As are Mearsheimer and Walt,who wrote the groundbreaking study of the The Israeli Lobby. (Their orignal essay - supposed to have been published in the respected old Atlantic Monthly before the inevitble pressure was applied and had to be pubbed in England - is on the Net, and in book form it briefly hit the NY Times bestseller list last summer)

Former General and presiendtial candicate Wesley Clark (himself of part Jewish provenance) said that while most US Jews have a primary loyalty to America, the "big New York money" was fanatically Zionist. (He could have added "big Hollywood money" as well)

The right of lobbies to exist is written into the Constitution. (Right of the people to petition their elected representatives)

It has been abused. By both industy and other govts, and for the latter most noteworthy by those representing Israel.

I did say a few months ago on this forum that I gave it a 50-50 chance that the US, acting as Israel's catspaw, would bomb Iran before the Idiot left office. (And it -500 IMO that the Idiot will pardon zionist superspy Jonathan Pollard before he leaves for the ranch)

With so-called moderates like Gates now echoing the Cheney/Petraus line that Iran is suppying weapons to anti-invader militias, I'd up the chance to 60/40.

Do agree that if Israel sees Iran as a threat they will go after them, tho maybe not with thier own nukes. But they'd rather get thier servant in the WH to do the dirty work.

BTW, your belief that Iran (the Iranian prime miminster, I call him ADJ for short) said that Israel should be wiped off the map - is incorrect.

Never said "wiped off," never said "map." Some clown in the Iranian News Agency was responsible for the mistranlsation, but the NY TIMES in repeating it should have gotten a Farsi speaker to translate it. He said, basically, that the Zionist regime would one day disappear from history, and in that he was directly quoting the founder of modern Iran, Ayotollah Khomeini.

Prof Juan Cole (of Michigan or Mich State, i think) an expert on Iran and Farsi speaker, correctly translated the speech. Cole is a bitter enemy of the current govt of Iran, which he says had killed or imprisioned some of his colleagues. But he is an honest academic.

Gotta go till Monday!

[pavyracer]

Attacking a nuclear reactor and attacking a country's armed forces is not the same thing dumbass. If you still believe that Israel can launch a conventional attack against a country's armed forces that doesn't share a border with and is located 1000 miles apart then you are a dumber military expert than you claim to be.

[curious]

Originally Posted by pavyracer

Attacking a nuclear reactor and attacking a county's armed forces is not the same thing dumbass. If you still believe that Israel can launch a conventional attack against a country's armed forces that doesn't share a border with and is located 1000 miles apart then you are a dumber military expert than you claim to be.

Please come to the SBR bash and call me those names to my face coward.

[pavyracer]

Originally Posted by curious

Please come to the SBR bash and call me those names to my face coward.

I won't have to call you any names. I'll start a topic about military weapons and tactics, which you completely have no knowledge, and let your words prove the names you are called for the audience. You probably can't tell the difference between an RPG and a telescope if they were both put next to each other.

[BuddyBear]

You guys are still talking about this???

Give it a rest fellows. You guys aren't going to solve this problem. You guys probably care about this more than the people in Israel and Palestine.

I learned long ago that talking about this was a complete waste of time. It's like trying to convince a pro-choice person to switch to pro-life--it's not happening.

Eventually the Jews will leave Palestine and we'll go back the 1948 border. Sooner or later the demographics will catch up in Israel where Muslims will be the majority and Jews the minority. Jews in Israel will see life in the U.S.A. is just as rewarding and far more safe and they'll all move here. No Jew is going to want to live with Muslims...certainly Jews won't tolerate such a low standard of living. Just like all the Christians have fled countries like Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, etc....no reason to believe Jews won't follow suit.

Islam is a relentless religion, they will make life miserable for the Jews from now till the end of time if they stay there......

[BuddyBear]

Ritehook is making a lot of great points in his posts...he is certainly well versed on this topic.

[donjuan]

Eventually the Jews will leave Palestine

You really don't have a clue if you think that some mass emigration by Jews from Israel to the US is going to take place.

[BuddyBear]

Originally Posted by donjuan

You really don't have a clue if you think that some mass emigration by Jews from Israel to the US is going to take place.

Yeah, not only are you an expert in sports betting, but now you are an expert on Middle Eastern affairs as well.

No, I don't expect a "mass emigration"...read the passage more closely to see what I imply.

What I am saying is that there is sizeable Arab population that resides in Israel, approximately 20%. It's a big enough concern that the Kinnest addresses this issue routinely. There is a huge effort to attract Jews from all over the world to come live in Israel. Right before his stroke, Sharon was over in America lobbying the U.S. Congress to send more Jews to Israel. Israelis are well aware that at some distant point they will seize to be a majority in thier own country and instead they will be a minority. They can't continue to impose their laws and culture onto an unreceptive majority. Because Israel is premised on being a "Jewish State," you tell me how having an Arab majority will work???

Now I am talking 50-70 years from now not next year of course. Eventually, Jews will leave the land just as Christians in the Arab World are leaving in droves right now. In Lebanon right now, Christians are trying to get out as quickly even though just 20 years ago they were a solid majority...now they are a minority. There still remains a small community of Christians in Arab countries but nowhere near their numbers from decades ago.

Remember, the whole rationale behind the creation of Israel was that it would 1) be a safe place for Jews b/c througout their history they had been persecute and 2) It would reduce anti-semitism.

Right now, the only place in the world where Jews aren't safe is in Israel and with eveything Israel does it increases anti-semitism. Israel is pointless in that respect.

If Israel was so great, why wouldn't all the Jews in this country be rushing to live there??? How many Jews in this country do you who know are thinking seriously about settling down and moving to Israel. None, zip, zilch, zero....

Why? Life is good in America. They enjoy an unprecdented amount of religious freedom, they are financially successful, they are politically well represented, hold major positions in all sectors of life, etc....

Jews in Israel see this. Sooner or later they'll all slowly come here. It will take decades, but it will happen. The violence is unending over there. It's NEVER going to end. It just won't. Jews have a high standard of living.....The Muslims will make their lives miserable over there. Off to America.....

Bump this thread up in 2064 and you'll see I am right....

[Kerfuffle]

Originally Posted by BuddyBear

Yeah, not only are you an expert in sports betting, but now you are an expert on Middle Eastern affairs as well.

No, I don't expect a "mass emigration"...read the passage more closely to see what I imply.

What I am saying is that there is sizeable Arab population that resides in Israel, approximately 20%. It's a big enough concern that the Kinnest addresses this issue routinely. There is a huge effort to attract Jews from all over the world to come live in Israel. Right before his stroke, Sharon was over in America lobbying the U.S. Congress to send more Jews to Israel. Israelis are well aware that at some distant point they will seize to be a majority in thier own country and instead they will be a minority. They can't continue to impose their laws and culture onto an unreceptive majority. Because Israel is premised on being a "Jewish State," you tell me how having an Arab majority will work???

Now I am talking 50-70 years from now not next year of course. Eventually, Jews will leave the land just as Christians in the Arab World are leaving in droves right now. In Lebanon right now, Christians are trying to get out as quickly even though just 20 years ago they were a solid majority...now they are a minority. There still remains a small community of Christians in Arab countries but nowhere near their numbers from decades ago.

Remember, the whole rationale behind the creation of Israel was that it would 1) be a safe place for Jews b/c througout their history they had been persecute and 2) It would reduce anti-semitism.

Right now, the only place in the world where Jews aren't safe is in Israel and with eveything Israel does it increases anti-semitism. Israel is pointless in that respect.

If Israel was so great, why wouldn't all the Jews in this country be rushing to live there??? How many Jews in this country do you who know are thinking seriously about settling down and moving to Israel. None, zip, zilch, zero....

Why? Life is good in America. They enjoy an unprecdented amount of religious freedom, they are financially successful, they are politically well represented, hold major positions in all sectors of life, etc....

Jews in Israel see this. Sooner or later they'll all slowly come here. It will take decades, but it will happen. The violence is unending over there. It's NEVER going to end. It just won't. Jews have a high standard of living.....The Muslims will make their lives miserable over there. Off to America.....

Bump this thread up in 2064 and you'll see I am right....

I'm sure the U.S. is going to issue 5.5 million green cards to Israeli citizens

You should go attend some 60 year Israel independece ceremonies next month to see how unbelievably wrong you are.

[BuddyBear]

Originally Posted by Kerfuffle

I'm sure the U.S. is going to issue 5.5 million green cards to Israeli citizens

You should go attend some 60 year Israel independece ceremonies next month to see how unbelievably wrong you are.

Yeah, this is some wild conspiracy I have??? All Israelis are well aware of this. Why are they trying to recruit more Jews to come live in Israel? Why is Sharon lobbying the U.S. Congress to bring more Jews to live in Israel? Did I say all 5.5 million are going to leave, at once...no I said there will be a gradual departure over the next 50 years coupled with an increasing Arab presence with Israel.

Give me a break. Most Jews will eventually get tired of living in a violence loaded area and just pack up and leave. Most Jews won't want to live with an Arab majority in the future. Only the hard core religious zionest lunatics will stick around thinking that a God that does not exist from a fabricated book says that this is their land.

I take it you are Jewish....why aren't you living in Israel then if you like it so much???