[imgv94]

Maybe we will see -2.5 now? Any thoughts?

[Checkerboard]

I like the idea in general of taking a team that's been losing
ATS over a team that's been winning ats as of late, but not
when it involves laying points in this range, on the road vs
a hangaroun host . . . it's 23-10 MNF right now with around
8:00 left, so I'm figuring NYG's not covering here . . .

[onlooker]

Nope, this is not a game I will be wagering on. Sides or totals.

Good luck if you do IMG.

[austintx05]

Agreed. Giants are not a good team. Absolutely no chemistry.

[Doc JS]

The Giants are really banged up on the defensive side of the ball and they get worn down in the second half.

Offensively they appear to be without direction. Eli doesn't complete a large enough percentage of his passes. They really miss their left OT - Whitfield is just past it at this point as a quality back-up. They really miss Toomer. I've never been a "Plex" guy. Shockey is a head case.

I fully expect Dallas to catch and surpass the Giants here over the next couple of weeks.

Doc JS

[bigboydan]

The under might me the better way to play this game.

[Hoja Verdes]

I like the Titans here.

The Giants are coming apart at the seams. Eli is a headcase after last night, I don't think he can mentally prepare to take on the Titans, who will undoubtedly get fired up for this one after their blowout of the Eagles and the mid-season spark they've got.

I think Tiki plays to the level of his teammates. He's always a threat and will be good for at least one TD, but I think he's starting to look forward to wearing a suit on Sundays.

Shockey hates Manning. He's having a crappy year because his QB sucks. And everyone saw Burress last night, he's got the same attitude as Randy Moss.

It will be a close game, but I like the Titans +3 for 2x and probably 2x on the ml as well.

[Seattle Slew]

I also like the Titans, but I am 0-5 in Giants games this year, and I just can't touch them or go against them, although I had Dallas as a likely play after they lost the first time around.

Watching the Giants, it's hard to believe they are 6-4. They have played some of the most atrocious football I've seen from any team this year.

[QUOTE=Hoja Verdes]I like the Titans here.

[Italia_NYC]

Right now I wouldn't bet the Giants if they were playing a College team. Missing seven starters is obviously too much for them to overcome and they have lost the luxury of substitution. Manning has been underachieving to say the least lately and the play calling leaves little to be desired. I’d be shocked if they win their division at this rate.

This being said, comments like “Giants are not a good team”, “Shockey is a head case” “Tiki plays to the level of his teammates”, “Shockey hates Manning”, are all pretty foolish comments to any self respecting football fan. Remember to keep things in perspective and to prevent comments stemming from the heart.

[Hoja Verdes]

Right now I wouldn't bet the Giants if they were playing a College team. Missing seven starters is obviously too much for them to overcome and they have lost the luxury of substitution. Manning has been underachieving to say the least lately and the play calling leaves little to be desired. I’d be shocked if they win their division at this rate.

My comments aren't "stemming from the heart," I just call em like I see em. And for the record, I had my 2nd largest NFL bet of the year on the Jags Monday night, so it's not like I have a personal vendetta against the Giants.

This being said, comments like “Giants are not a good team”, “Shockey is a head case” “Tiki plays to the level of his teammates”, “Shockey hates Manning”, are all pretty foolish comments to any self respecting football fan. Remember to keep things in perspective and to prevent comments stemming from the heart.

Giants are not a good team: too banged up and frustrated, did you watch MNF??? 26-10 should have been at least 36-10.

Shockey is a head case: as evidenced by him shaking his head in disgust after each failed drive. How long can you simply "grin and bear it" with a QB who can't get you the ball when you clearly have an advantage over the avg defender.

Tiki plays to the level of his teammates: If they can't make basic blocks and hold off a good defense, he can't play to his potential, pretty simple.

Shockey hates Manning: maybe over the line, I'll give you that one.

But Eli's days are numbered.

[Italia_NYC]

Giants are not a good team: too banged up and frustrated, did you watch MNF??? 26-10 should have been at least 36-10.

Shockey is a head case: as evidenced by him shaking his head in disgust after each failed drive. How long can you simply "grin and bear it" with a QB who can't get you the ball when you clearly have an advantage over the avg defender.

Tiki plays to the level of his teammates: If they can't make basic blocks and hold off a good defense, he can't play to his potential, pretty simple.

Shockey hates Manning: maybe over the line, I'll give you that one.

But Eli's days are numbered.

With all due respect, with the exception of this year, the Giants offensive line hasn't been able to make blocks and hold off defenses for the last 4-5 years and Tiki, year in and year out, constantly carries that team and breaks new records every year. Say what you want about anyone else on the team, but be smart and withhold comments on Barber. He is without question that teams MVP and does the exact opposite of "Play to the level of his teammates".

Shockey; all I can say is I’d love to have him on my team. You’d be hard pressed to find a more emotionally charged player in football then him. I simply love the guy, and his teammates love him. Why? Because he plays with an unmatched intensity that is infectious to all around him. What you call a “head case”, his teammates and other professionals around the league call desire and emotion. You and I should only hope to have that kind of passion for anything in life.

I wish not to dispute this any further as this is not the proper channel to do so. We are all entitled to our opinions, just some sound more intelligently thought out than others.

[Doc JS]

This being said, comments like “Giants are not a good team”, “Shockey is a head case” “Tiki plays to the level of his teammates”, “Shockey hates Manning”, are all pretty foolish comments to any self respecting football fan. Remember to keep things in perspective and to prevent comments stemming from the heart.

NYC,

The "Shockey is a head case" comment was mine and I'll stick by it.

Now, I didn't say he wasn't a helluva football player. He does give max effort, (which is more than I can say for Plex), but if you watched him on the sidelines Monday night running around like a raving lunatic, there really isn't any question about him being a head case. He's practically certifiable.

Doc JS

[Hoja Verdes]

I take it you're a Giants fan. Forgive me I offended your urbane sophistication and intelligence, and no, your swipe there at the end didn't fly under the radar. I am simply a gambler. As long as I can find value in betting against a quarterback whose last name is Manning and whose first name is not Peyton, I will continue to do so.

[McBa1n]

I'm 6-0 in picking Giants games this year - and something tells me that I should lay the points... But that was yesterday's gut before I heard Tiki put his foot in his mouth today.

I'm still a bit torn, but I kinda like the Gmen here right now... I think there are better opportunities to get your money in, but the Giants have to win to stay in it. I don't like the team's leadership at all, but I don't think they'll quit, either.

[imgv94]

Right now I wouldn't bet the Giants if they were playing a College team. Missing seven starters is obviously too much for them to overcome and they have lost the luxury of substitution. Manning has been underachieving to say the least lately and the play calling leaves little to be desired. I’d be shocked if they win their division at this rate.

This being said, comments like “Giants are not a good team”, “Shockey is a head case” “Tiki plays to the level of his teammates”, “Shockey hates Manning”, are all pretty foolish comments to any self respecting football fan. Remember to keep things in perspective and to prevent comments stemming from the heart.

What seven starters are they missing?? I count 4 and only 2 or 3 of them are significant..

[thezbar]

Two teams going in different directions.Not going to get involved but if I was it would be on the Titans

[Italia_NYC]

What seven starters are they missing?? I count 4 and only 2 or 3 of them are significant..

Arrington, Umenyiora, Strahan, Petigout, Toomer, Madison, Tuck, Short and now their guard Chris Snee injured his knee, though the extent of which is not known. So actually 8-9 starters. It is just ridiculous.

[austintx05]

Shockey went to Miami, so is it really a suprise how he acts?

I gotta think there will be some points scored in this game. Tenn as good as they looked vs a McNabb-less Eagles team, is still the 32nd overall ranked defense in the NFL. If the Giants are going to bust out offensively and look like they are alive, it happens this Sunday. Giants aren't exactly shutting the opposition down either, especailly with all of the injuries that have taken place.

[imgv94]

Arrington, Umenyiora, Strahan, Petigout, Toomer, Madison, Tuck, Short and now their guard Chris Snee injured his knee, though the extent of which is not known. So actually 8-9 starters. It is just ridiculous.

ESPN.com - NFL - NFL - Injuries

Why ESPN only reporting four?

[roadrunner]

Giants should cover against the Titans. 3 points is just knee jerk reaction to their lost last week. Overall, the Giants are still a better team than the Titans.

[Italia_NYC]

ESPN.com - NFL - NFL - Injuries

Why ESPN only reporting four?

Good question. I'm not sure, but that is clearly not accurate.

Injuries - Giants.com

[uscdog2003]

The Giants are all over the place right now. Depending on how much advice the "real" Manning is gives his little brother at Thanksgiving dinner, it all depends.

advantage: Gaints (maybe ML at this point)

[imgv94]

Good question. I'm not sure, but that is clearly not accurate.

Injuries - Giants.com

I still see only 3 or 4 players out? You said 7 starters?

[Italia_NYC]

I still see only 3 or 4 players out? You said 7 starters?

Arrington, Umenyiora, Strahan, Petigout, Toomer, Madison, and Emmons are ALL starters for the NY football Giants who are out due to injury. Snee, also a starter, injured his knee last week and may miss this weeks game.

Technically Tuck and Short were not starters at the beginning of the year, but after Emmons went down Short stepped in and essentially won the job. Now short is out due to injury. Tuck filled in for Strahan and Umenyiora, he is now out due to injury.

That is seven (7) to eight (8) starters they have and will be missing again this week.

Either way, you have a better chance of seeing batman fly through your bathroom window this evening than the Giants winning Sunday afternoon.

[imgv94]

Oh my bad... I forgot about Arrington.. Shiit..

I still think the Giants win though.. And a couple of those guys might actually play..

[Checkerboard]

Arrington, Umenyiora, Strahan, Petigout, Toomer, Madison, and Emmons are ALL starters for the NY football Giants who are out due to injury. Snee, also a starter, injured his knee last week and may miss this weeks game.

Technically Tuck and Short were not starters at the beginning of the year, but after Emmons went down Short stepped in and essentially won the job. Now short is out due to injury. Tuck filled in for Strahan and Umenyiora, he is now out due to injury.

That is seven (7) to eight (8) starters they have and will be missing again this week.

Either way, you have a better chance of seeing batman fly through your bathroom window this evening than the Giants winning Sunday afternoon.

That's quite a list . . .

I heard Tiki was publicly criticizing Coughlin's play calling in the JAX game, I'm with Tiki on the criticism, but I not so sure
it's a great idea to stir it up, I guess he's frustrated though,
so it's understandable . . .

[austintx05]

I think the best strategy is play on Tennessee as they very well could beat NYG and you should get NYG +4 or so when Dallas comes to town.

[McBa1n]

First of all, Shockey is not a head case.
That's how he is portrated on sportscenter.... I'd gather that's the extent of most people's knowledge on that, to be honest. He's an arrogant person. He also burned a LOT of media bridges when he was a rookie. That is not a good idea in NY - so of COURSE they want to make him into someone like TO. He ain't anything like that and hasn't ever been.

He's overconfident - and there ain't nothing wrong with that. The BIGGEST mistake started when he called Parcells a 'f\*g' (which I thought was awesome as a competitor - he went way over the line, though) and then Fassell put the gag order on him. Shockey NEEDS to open his jaw. The team feeds off of that. Crap, he's made average plays and his helmet would fly off and he'd get all WWF and the crowd and team would go nuts. He's a heluva ball player. Top 10 TEs in the NFL, easy. Top 5, likely. The team loves that guy - and since he was told to not be himself, he hasn't been. He's been a non-factor, really, and it's a HUGE mistake. I can't think of one great team that didn't have a money tight end... Aside from Wiggins in New England - but he's become serviceable over time in Minn.

Shockey is no head case, though. Again, that's the sensationalist bullshit you see on sportscenter and listen to Sean Salisbury yap about - football is more than a soundbite you hear. It's the game you watch and all the reporting behind it - but more importantly, the HISTORY behind the action. It's taken ALL wrong. If you noticed, when Shockey is yappin and pumping up the team -they are MUCH better. I still don't think he's been the same, though, since he was gagged. I thought it was dumb then and I think it's dumb now. He should be the focal point of the passing attack as he's the ONLY wide out the Giants have right now with any heart. Plaxico has no heart, Carter? mostly a bumb. Moss? Will he ever play? Toomer being done for the year is more devastating than most people think - he's a class act solid pro receiver.

As for Tiki - the guy is World Class as a player. As a leader? He's been a cancer to the Giants for a LONG time. I always thought it was Strahan that was the cancer (the O and D have been at odds on again/off again for years and years and years) - and seeing what Tiki was saying was WAY out of line and brings out WHY he is a cancer on that team. He doesn't care about the team. He complains he isn't getting the ball - but when you looked at his runs. Hmm, 1st and 10 - 1 yard run. 2nd and 9 and he wants the ball? Are you nuts? Tiki was a better back when that line wasn't as good, for some reason. But after all that, the guy should shut his mouth up - he really really really hurt his team this week by being a primadona - but that's not really anything new to him. He's subtely been doing that for years... He's got great PR, I'll give him that.

But back to the Giants. To be honest, if I was Eli, I'd play Mike Vick or throw it to Shockey or throw it away. How many times in the last 2 years has a Giant (save Toomer and Shockey) even ATTEMPTED to try and keep a defender from intercepting the ball? None. How many Giant receivers actually try to make a tough play on the ball and put their body in harms way? (save Shockey and Toomer) None.

Look - Eli is struggling, but if you see how he is struggling, it's a combination of jackass wideouts that think they should have everything given to them. Plax has all-pro talent but plays like a skirt. Carter is just inconsistent and makes horrible plays. The other problem is losing "the penalty man" Petitgout. I get on him often, he takes WAY too many penalties - but I have to admit, he was having a career year this season, IMO. You don't lose a left tackle and get better.
How's Denver doing since they lost Matt Lepsis? How did Green Bay fair in the weeks Chad Clifton was out? (I know they suck, but they weren't as crappy when he was playing aside from the Chi and NE games)

The bottom line is the Giants have a HUGE chemistry problem that is not under control. That's part Tiki's problem, since he's the senior stud on the team that's active right now and that's on the coach, also... But the guys around them have to be held accountable.

If the Giants want to win, it's gotta start with Shockey getting 7-8 grabs/game... Tiki will be MUCH better then, Eli will have much better stats then - and Plaxico will have more room down the sidelines to push off and make a sick grab.

I'm still torn on this game, but I'm still leaning Giants - although - after watching Vince Young versus Philly - the kid is a REAL nice player. I was wrong. It was the right move to start him. He's good enough to play right now... And Henry has been playing lights out for the first time in 2 years. Also, Tenn's D is coming around nicely. Solid, at worst.

[austintx05]

Shockey a Top 5 TE?

Please pass what your smokin'

[imgv94]

Fisher will outcoach Coughlin in this one, but will it be enough is the question.

I must say that is one factor that scares me..

Coughlin The players don't like him you can tell.. Tiki Barber can't stand him..

[primo_skillz]

I don't think Shockey is a top 5 tight end, but he is of top 10 caliber.

[Italia_NYC]

First of all, Shockey is not a head case.
That's how he is portrated on sportscenter.... I'd gather that's the extent of most people's knowledge on that, to be honest. He's an arrogant person. He also burned a LOT of media bridges when he was a rookie. That is not a good idea in NY - so of COURSE they want to make him into someone like TO. He ain't anything like that and hasn't ever been.

He's overconfident - and there ain't nothing wrong with that. The BIGGEST mistake started when he called Parcells a 'f\*g' (which I thought was awesome as a competitor - he went way over the line, though) and then Fassell put the gag order on him. Shockey NEEDS to open his jaw. The team feeds off of that. Crap, he's made average plays and his helmet would fly off and he'd get all WWF and the crowd and team would go nuts. He's a heluva ball player. Top 10 TEs in the NFL, easy. Top 5, likely. The team loves that guy - and since he was told to not be himself, he hasn't been. He's been a non-factor, really, and it's a HUGE mistake. I can't think of one great team that didn't have a money tight end... Aside from Wiggins in New England - but he's become serviceable over time in Minn.

Shockey is no head case, though. Again, that's the sensationalist bullshit you see on sportscenter and listen to Sean Salisbury yap about - football is more than a soundbite you hear. It's the game you watch and all the reporting behind it - but more importantly, the HISTORY behind the action. It's taken ALL wrong. If you noticed, when Shockey is yappin and pumping up the team -they are MUCH better. I still don't think he's been the same, though, since he was gagged. I thought it was dumb then and I think it's dumb now. He should be the focal point of the passing attack as he's the ONLY wide out the Giants have right now with any heart. Plaxico has no heart, Carter? mostly a bumb. Moss? Will he ever play? Toomer being done for the year is more devastating than most people think - he's a class act solid pro receiver.

As for Tiki - the guy is World Class as a player. As a leader? He's been a cancer to the Giants for a LONG time. I always thought it was Strahan that was the cancer (the O and D have been at odds on again/off again for years and years and years) - and seeing what Tiki was saying was WAY out of line and brings out WHY he is a cancer on that team. He doesn't care about the team. He complains he isn't getting the ball - but when you looked at his runs. Hmm, 1st and 10 - 1 yard run. 2nd and 9 and he wants the ball? Are you nuts? Tiki was a better back when that line wasn't as good, for some reason. But after all that, the guy should shut his mouth up - he really really really hurt his team this week by being a primadona - but that's not really anything new to him. He's subtely been doing that for years... He's got great PR, I'll give him that.

But back to the Giants. To be honest, if I was Eli, I'd play Mike Vick or throw it to Shockey or throw it away. How many times in the last 2 years has a Giant (save Toomer and Shockey) even ATTEMPTED to try and keep a defender from intercepting the ball? None. How many Giant receivers actually try to make a tough play on the ball and put their body in harms way? (save Shockey and Toomer) None.

Look - Eli is struggling, but if you see how he is struggling, it's a combination of jackass wideouts that think they should have everything given to them. Plax has all-pro talent but plays like a skirt. Carter is just inconsistent and makes horrible plays. The other problem is losing "the penalty man" Petitgout. I get on him often, he takes WAY too many penalties - but I have to admit, he was having a career year this season, IMO. You don't lose a left tackle and get better.
How's Denver doing since they lost Matt Lepsis? How did Green Bay fair in the weeks Chad Clifton was out? (I know they suck, but they weren't as crappy when he was playing aside from the Chi and NE games)

The bottom line is the Giants have a HUGE chemistry problem that is not under control. That's part Tiki's problem, since he's the senior stud on the team that's active right now and that's on the coach, also... But the guys around them have to be held accountable.

If the Giants want to win, it's gotta start with Shockey getting 7-8 grabs/game... Tiki will be MUCH better then, Eli will have much better stats then - and Plaxico will have more room down the sidelines to push off and make a sick grab.

I'm still torn on this game, but I'm still leaning Giants - although - after watching Vince Young versus Philly - the kid is a REAL nice player. I was wrong. It was the right move to start him. He's good enough to play right now... And Henry has been playing lights out for the first time in 2 years. Also, Tenn's D is coming around nicely. Solid, at worst.

Good write up McBa1n. I pretty much agree with everything you said. Shockey no doubt is a top 5 TE in the NFL and a player that EVERY team in the league would want on their team. I agree that Tiki should do what he does best, and run, and keep his mouth shut. I do not ever recall him being so vocal, so I can only chalk this up to the fact this is his last year and he wants to go out a winner. Truth is, we can't really blame him. Can't blame him for wanting to win, can't blame him for questioning the play calling. But as the offensive leader of that team (and make no mistake, he is the offensive leader), you need to lead by example and keep any and all adversity behind closed doors. Not sure I would go so far as to say he is a cancer to that team though. Not for nothing, he has been that teams MVP and has put that team on his shoulders for many years. Before Shockey, before Burress, before Manning, there was Tiki; carrying the load as usual. Also with the exception of Derek Jeter, Tiki Barber is probably the most well known, well liked athlete in the NY/NJ area and I don’t think anyone would dare call him a cancer.