[williams22]

The east was weak, i agree he took a bunch of crap players with him but through the east! Look at the teams they beat!

Carrer wise lebron doesn't have better anything shooting wise than jordan did!
And you also seem to think lebron will win a championship in the next 3 years, we will see about that!
Like i also told you the game has changed a lot since mj played, there was defense played a lot more back then!


Lebron has alot of years to play let's see what happens!

I will leave it at that, it was nice to hear somebody that actually knows stats and has a good argument, i wont even respond to some of the morons that posted dumb crap in this thread!

Exactly, debate is good as long as intelligent points are being made.

As for career-wise shooting, Lebron's 3FG% is actually slightly higher than Jordan's. He shoots a much higher volume of 3s which makes it even more impressive. Also remember that Jordan played the majority of his career (all of his Bulls years) with a shorter 3-point line. He shot 24%, 19%, and 29% in the years in which the line was moved back to the distance it is now. Lebron also has far more range than Jordan did. He shoots a comfortable jumper from 35-feet.

Again, Lebron's True Shooting percentage this year was only topped by MJ once in his career.

If Lebron wins his first championship this year then the Lebron/Kobe debate will be officially done and the Lebron/MJ or Lebron/Oscar debates will begin.

[mkasad23]

a player whos in his 7th year playing in the east never made it to the finals once to compared to anyone is completely pathetic

[mkasad23]

never made it to the finals once..and he plays in the east..

[williams22]

I was watching a Cavs game earlier this year and I swear I thought Jamario Moon was the younger bro of Scottie Pippen!

I can't recall who they're playing against, and it was a close game, but I vividly remember Moon banking in a 3-point shot in the waning minutes of the 4th quarter. Do you remember that game bro?

Haha yes of course I remember. I wish Jamario were the younger brother of Pippen. I will say, Moon may have better hops than Pippen did.

[williams22]

a player whos in his 7th year playing in the east never made it to the finals once to compared to anyone is completely pathetic

never made it to the finals once..and he plays in the east..

Do you have any ability to learn from your prior mistakes? Lebron took the Cavs to the Finals in 2007. Welcome to the NBA, now please go away so people who know the sport can discuss.

[mkasad23]

your not discussing sports why dont you go to a lebron james fan page thats all you ever talk about

[williams22]

your not discussing sports why dont you go to a lebron james fan page thats all you ever talk about

Time to put you on ignore.

[Martin42]

Why not just sit back and watch the 2 best of this era and not compare to jordan , i mean when i used to watch jordan it was amazing the things he did against the players in that era and i think the farther its gets away the more people forget how awesome he was . when he stepped on the court it was like a god was out there and the vision he had on the court was unreal . We will really have to let kobe and lebrons career end before the real debate can even surface . And 1 more thing , to say pippen was anything other then great would be a huge slap in his face . theres my 2 cents

[williams22]

Why not just sit back and watch the 2 best of this era and not compare to jordan , i mean when i used to watch jordan it was amazing the things he did against the players in that era and i think the farther its gets away the more people forget how awesome he was . when he stepped on the court it was like a god was out there and the vision he had on the court was unreal . We will really have to let kobe and lebrons career end before the real debate can even surface . And 1 more thing , to say pippen was anything other then great would be a huge slap in his face . theres my 2 cents

Very good points. I should have prefaced my arguments by saying this thread was created because I made a statement in another thread to the effect of "Lebron does certain things, other than scoring, better than Jordan did". I agree that comparing the two doesn't make a ton of sense, as one is 25 and the other is retired, one is a SF in a PF's body while the other was a true SG. Still fun nonetheless.

I've said it over and over, Pippen was top 50 all time and was top 5-10 in the league most years he played.

[Martin42]

yeah just awesome to see these guys fly around the court . makes me wanna brake out the vcr in the garage and throw in some vhs highlight reels from the 80's LOL

[williams22]

yeah just awesome to see these guys fly around the court . makes me wanna brake out the vcr in the garage and throw in some vhs highlight reels from the 80's LOL

Agreed. I bust out my 24 hour MJ DVD every once in a while. It's been gathering dust ever since he showed just how much of an arrogant prick he can be at the Hall of Fame induction though

Here's the only highlight I can ever remember watching over and over that doesn't involve scoring, passing, stealing, or blocking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNOOoZZB9BY

[Martin42]

Its one thing to be arrogant on the court but to bring that to the biggest achievement a player can get is just garbage . So uncalled for and he lost alot of fans from it .

[whatsgood5]

i think jordan is better than lebron.lebron could never be jordan

Agreed

[pats3peat]

that leap is a crazy vid seen it

[williams22]

that leap is a crazy vid seen it

I'm waiting for the day someone misthrows a lob to him even higher than that but close enough to the hoop that he can get it and finish.

As far as Jordan goes, he did a great job at hiding who he really was while he was playing. Sure there were stories about him making teammates cry and his gambling problems, but he was always professional at least in front of the cameras. The hall of fame speech on the other hand was completely uncalled for. He disrespected over 20 people in a 15 minutes speech. Doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but certainly makes him less likable in my eyes.

[Pecos Bill]

svasbvasvasdv

[HenPrivilege]

The biggest difference between Lebron and Jordan is that Lebron isn't preventing GREAT players from winning championships. During the Jordan era, we seen the likes of Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, and Karl Malone/John Stockton NOT win any championships.

You can also add that Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olajuwon, Gary Payton, and Shaq didn't win a championship while MJ was in the League.

The era Lebron plays in is a youth movement era. The ball that is being played today lacks alot of fundamentals because the League is very young and most of the players have played little or no college. Damn near every play in a half court set is a travel, but officiating has also evolved over the past 20 years. If Lebron played during MJ's era, I don't think he would dominate the way he does today. But we would never know because the only way Lebron would have played 20 years ago is if he played college. No one would have drafted a high school kid back in the day. So in hindsight, Lebron with college experience is very scary because he very well could have been better than MJ. Never know.

[williams22]

The biggest difference between Lebron and Jordan is that Lebron isn't preventing GREAT players from winning championships. During the Jordan era, we seen the likes of Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, and Karl Malone/John Stockton NOT win any championships.

You can also add that Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olajuwon, Gary Payton, and Shaq didn't win a championship while MJ was in the League.

The era Lebron plays in is a youth movement era. The ball that is being played today lacks alot of fundamentals because the League is very young and most of the players have played little or no college. Damn near every play in a half court set is a travel, but officiating has also evolved over the past 20 years. If Lebron played during MJ's era, I don't think he would dominate the way he does today. But we would never know because the only way Lebron would have played 20 years ago is if he played college. No one would have drafted a high school kid back in the day. So in hindsight, Lebron with college experience is very scary because he very well could have been better than MJ. Never know.

I'm guessing from this argument that you are 40+ years old. Today's game has plenty of fundamentals, the game is just different. Lebron had absolutely nothing to gain by going to college, and yet he had everything to lose. It was the smart choice to go straight to the NBA. Coach K even said so himself.

There were high school kids drafted. Ever hear of Moses Malone? It just wasn't as prominent. Now there is a rule in place so it can't happen.

One reason many great players didn't win a championship in Jordan's era was because big blockbuster trades were less common. Trades like Garnett and Gasol never happened. You didn't see stars commonly moving to already strong teams. Garnett would have never won if he stayed in Minnesota, yet he still would have been considered great. Jason Kidd still hasn't won. Nash hasn't won. Dirk hasn't won. Carmelo hasn't won. There are plenty of examples.

[jsmithj88]

i dont think u can say that lebron is better than MJ at this point
but if u look at it, they were in the same exact situations
MJ was drafted into a SHIT bulls squad same as lebron and the cavs
MJ put up ridiculous numbers because he was a one man show, same as lebron
but the one key difference is that MJ eventually got pippen, kukoc, rodman, grant, paxson, etc
i mean just look at the squad that lebron took to the finals .... pavlovic, gibson, hughes, etc
that is not a championship team, that is the a lottery team
people dont realize how ridiculous a feat it was for him to carry that team to the finals
the only thing close to wat lebron did was when iverson took the sixers to the finals, and even he had more talent on that team that lebron did on his finals squad.
im not saying lebron is better than MJ, all im saying is that if lebron wins a title this year, he is ahead of where MJ was at the same juncture of their careers.

[HenPrivilege]

I'm guessing from this argument that you are 40+ years old. Today's game has plenty of fundamentals, the game is just different. Lebron had absolutely nothing to gain by going to college, and yet he had everything to lose. It was the smart choice to go straight to the NBA. Coach K even said so himself.

There were high school kids drafted. Ever hear of Moses Malone? It just wasn't as prominent. Now there is a rule in place so it can't happen.

One reason many great players didn't win a championship in Jordan's era was because big blockbuster trades were less common. Trades like Garnett and Gasol never happened. You didn't see stars commonly moving to already strong teams. Garnett would have never won if he stayed in Minnesota, yet he still would have been considered great. Jason Kidd still hasn't won. Nash hasn't won. Dirk hasn't won. Carmelo hasn't won. There are plenty of examples.

Naw, I'm not 40+, I'm 28. I just have fond memories of watching the NBA on NBC with my father on the weekends when I was around 5 or 6 years old. It was nothing but Knicks or Celtics in the morning, followed by the Bulls and then the Lakers in the evening. Things were much simpler then. Didn't have to watch the Washington Bullets vs. Bucks back then on national TV.

In regards to fundamentals in today's game, here are some youtube videos.

The great Lebron James and his patented crab dribble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKnTLo2xZ4Q

And here is one of a typical NBA "star" player. "Star" as in, ranks 12th in the league in scoring and has a 50 million dollar contract.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN_ljDfevB0

Today's game is very much different we all know that. We all watch the game closely because we all bet on it. The NBA is rigged, simple as that.

In regards to Lebron and college, I know he didn't need college. Any NBA franchise out there was willing to go all in on him. That's the difference between the game from 20 years ago. No one in their right mind would give an 18 year old millions of dollars and the entire franchise. For every Lebron, you can name a dozen Jonathan Bender's. The draft became a crap shoot over the years.

Back in the day, franchises were built from drafts, there weren't any needs for blockbuster trades. Blockbuster trades were born from trading draft rights like the Celtics did when they acquired Parrish and Mchale

I could have told you ahead of time that Dirk or Nash will never win a championship. Solely on these reasons. Dirk has the heart of a possum. Stephen Jackson exposed him for the whole world to see in 2007. I watched it all from my seats at Oracle. The guy is a wuss. Just because he has an MVP doesn't make him great. In regards to Nash, he has to play gimmick ball to be successful. The guy plays zero defense and his team hoists shots with 20 seconds on the shot clock. His stats are super inflated because they extend the game this way. And again, just because he won those MVP's doesn't make him great. Very entertaining, but not GREAT.

I'm confused on how you can bring up Dirk and Nash when I'm talkin bout Stockton and Malone. If they played 2 on 2, Stockton/Malone wins 9.9 times out of 10 buy an average score of 10-6. It would be a massacre.

I respect Kidd, a player like that only comes around so often. But Lebron has had little to no affect on his career. Carmelo is very interesting. He could be great, or he could be another Dominique Wilkins. Never know.

[kahnner]

Naw, I'm not 40+, I'm 28. I just have fond memories of watching the NBA on NBC with my father on the weekends when I was around 5 or 6 years old. It was nothing but Knicks or Celtics in the morning, followed by the Bulls and then the Lakers in the evening. Things were much simpler then. Didn't have to watch the Washington Bullets vs. Bucks back then on national TV.

In regards to fundamentals in today's game, here are some
youtube videos.

The great Lebron James and his patented crab dribble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKnTLo2xZ4Q


And here is one of a typical NBA "star" player. "Star" as in, ranks 12th in the league in scoring
and has a 50 million dollar contract.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN_ljDfevB0

Today's game is very much
different we all know that. We all watch the game closely because we all bet on it. The NBA is rigged, simple as that.

In regards to Lebron and college, I know he didn't need college. Any NBA franchise out
there was willing to go all in on him. That's the difference between the game from 20 years ago. No one in their right
mind would give an 18 year old millions of dollars and the entire franchise. For every Lebron, you can name a dozen Jonathan Bender's. The draft became a
crap shoot over the years.

Back in the day, franchises were built from drafts, there weren't any needs for blockbuster
trades. Blockbuster trades were born from trading draft rights like the Celtics did when they acquired Parrish and Mchale

I could have told you ahead of time that Dirk or Nash will never win a championship. Solely on these reasons. Dirk has the
heart of a possum. Stephen Jackson exposed him for the whole world to see in 2007. I watched it all from my seats at
Oracle. The guy is a wuss. Just because he has an MVP doesn't make him great. In regards to Nash, he has to play gimmick
ball to be successful. The guy plays zero defense and his team hoists shots with 20 seconds on the shot clock. His stats are super inflated because they
extend the game this way. And again, just because he won those MVP's doesn't make him great. Very entertaining, but not GREAT.

I'm confused on how you can bring up Dirk and Nash when I'm talkin bout Stockton and Malone.
If they played 2 on 2, Stockton/Malone wins 9.9 times out of 10 buy an average score of 10-6. It would be a massacre.

I respect Kidd, a player like that only comes around so often. But Lebron has had little to no affect
on his career. Carmelo is very interesting. He could be great, or he could be another Dominique Wilkins. Never
know.

very very good points!
Totally agree, with most of them!

My points exactly on the league now adays. Absolutely no defense by most these teams and not to many good teams.

[williams22]

very very good points!
Totally agree, with most of them!

My points exactly on the league now adays. Absolutely no defense by most these teams and not to many good teams.

I think people have a tendency to overrate the past. Certainly I respect those who came before, but I think their Legends get more and more inflated the further we get from their playing years. I think the Cavs and the Celtics play defense just as hard/well as any team in the last 20 years.

The game has certainly changed, but to say the fundamentals are gone is a blatant over-generalization. I would say players spend a lot more time doing film study now than in the past. Name a defender in the history of the NBA who put in more effort studying player's tendencies than Shane Battier for example.

[HenPrivilege]

I think people have a tendency to overrate the past. Certainly I respect those who came before, but I think their Legends get more and more inflated the further we get from their playing years. I think the Cavs and the Celtics play defense just as hard/well as any team in the last 20 years.

The game has certainly changed, but to say the fundamentals are gone is a blatant over-generalization. I would say players spend a lot more time doing film study now than in the past. Name a defender in the history of the NBA who put in more effort studying player's tendencies than Shane Battier for example.

Don't even bring up Shane Battier in this conversation. That is a travesty.

Don't get me wrong. I love today's NBA, but you got to admit there has been alot of garbage out there for years. Who in the hell would pay money to watch a game end with the final score of 71-68?

I love today's great players. I love watching D. Wade come to Oracle. He loves playing there, I've seen him do some incredible things and make it look effortless. I was there when Lebron hit a last second shot against the Warriors. I've seen some amazing things from today's superstars in person and up close. But in no way has the quality of the game improved.

You want to talk about players studying other players? I got one for you. Nate Thurmond aka "The Wilt Stopper". This guy on his off day would spend money out of his pocket, travel to where Wilt is playing and scout him in person. The next day, he would shut Wilt down. Would today's NBA player do that? No way. They're all too busy clubbing. Terrible values.

I'd like to add another underrated defender and he use to do pretty good against the Bulls. Sid "The Squid" Moncrief. Jordan had alot of respect for the Squid, dude was a shadow.

Comparing era's is important in any conversation when it comes to sports. Many could argue that the steroid era in baseball has been the greatest ever or the most shameful. It's just a matter of opinion.

[williams22]

Don't even bring up Shane Battier in this conversation. That is a travesty.

Don't get me wrong. I love today's NBA, but you got to admit there has been alot of garbage out there for years. Who in the hell would pay money to watch a game end with the final score of 71-68?

I love today's great players. I love watching D. Wade come to Oracle. He loves playing there, I've seen him do some incredible things and make it look effortless. I was there when Lebron hit a last second shot against the Warriors. I've seen some amazing things from today's superstars in person and up close. But in no way has the quality of the game improved.

You want to talk about players studying other players? I got one for you. Nate Thurmond aka "The Wilt Stopper". This guy on his off day would spend money out of his pocket, travel to where Wilt is playing and scout him in person. The next day, he would shut Wilt down. Would today's NBA player do that? No way. They're all too busy clubbing. Terrible values.

I'd like to add another underrated defender and he use to do pretty good against the Bulls. Sid "The Squid" Moncrief. Jordan had alot of respect for the Squid, dude was a shadow.

Comparing era's is important in any conversation when it comes to sports. Many could argue that the steroid era in baseball has been the greatest ever or the most shameful. It's just a matter of opinion.

I stand by my assertion that Battier is among the greatest ever as far as smart defenders go. Forget watching the guy in person, Battier has his own personal statisticians on the Rockets who crunch all sorts of advanced stats for him. The guy is genius on the defensive end of the floor.

By the way, when he runs for Senator/President in 15 years I won't be at all surprised.

[HenPrivilege]

I stand by my assertion that Battier is among the greatest ever as far as smart defenders go. Forget watching the guy in person, Battier has his own personal statisticians on the Rockets who crunch all sorts of advanced stats for him. The guy is genius on the defensive end of the floor.

By the way, when he runs for Senator/President in 15 years I won't be at all surprised.

I hope we are not talking about the same Shane Battier that got torched at home by the lowly 76ers on Saturday.

Battier was a -20 on the floor and had 5 fouls. 76ers had 5 people in double digits. Someone better fire that statistician.

Battier at best would have been in the CBA 20 years ago.

[williams22]

I hope we are not talking about the same Shane Battier that got torched at home by the lowly 76ers on Saturday.

Battier was a -20 on the floor and had 5 fouls. 76ers had 5 people in double digits. Someone better fire that statistician.

Battier at best would have been in the CBA 20 years ago.

You are that biased against current players huh? Did you see Battier guard Kobe in the playoffs? Everybody has a bad game every once in a while.

[HenPrivilege]

I'm not biased against current players. The thread is Lebron or Jordan and I stand with Jordan. In turn, the only way you can compare the two is you have to compare their competition. We can talk stats all day but stats revolve within an era. Like I said with baseball, who the hell hits over 70 homers 40 years ago. It don't happen.

With all the great NBA defenders today, I don't know why you say Battier is the greatest smart defender. He's just an average NBA player today and the only way he can get playing time is by hustling on the court. That's all he is. Pure hustle with basic skill. Just because you have some nerds crunching numbers don't make you athleticly better on the court. All that mumbo jumbo with the stats was just some playoff media hype last year. Even Phil Jackson said that stuff was garbage.

If memory serves me correct, Ron Artest held down that perimeter pretty nicely last season. He isn't a bad defender as well.

It's nice exchanging comments with you williams22. There isn't much intelligent sports banter on this forum. Games are about to start and it's time to watch. Good luck to you if you got action today.

[HenPrivilege]

Tough break for this williams guy.

I'd hate to see my idol not leave it all on the court in what may be his last game in a Cavs uniform.

[big0mar]