[Foals]

I have been betting for about a few months only, and I have learned a hell of a lot from this forum. So far, I can only cap NBA games as I have been a basketball fan my whole life. I've read this forum and I always see the word steam popping up. Can anyone explain what "steam" is?

[benjy]

Steam is basically betting along with a big move in the line across many books and taking advantage of sites that move too slowly.

[IrishTim]

Steam: a line moves quickly. If all the books offer an NFL game at +4, and the whole market moves to +3, it is "steaming". If you bet +4 at a slow moving book, that is "chasing steam". You'll win long-term, and get thrown out of books for doing it.

[BigdaddyQH]

Irish Tim is right, if you wager on off shore books and win. In Vegas, this is a common occurance, and no one ever gets thrown out, cut off, or gets limited as to how much they can wager. This is just another way of off shore books manipulating their customers. Steam is often wrong, and can be manipulated by the sharps. It is commonly called a "bait and switch" in the business. They put a little money down on a team in hopes of the "Steam" occuring, and then dump heavily on the opposition, when it is too late for Joe Pub to make the correction.

[Pensinger1]

Originally Posted by BigdaddyQH

Irish Tim is right, if you wager on off shore books and win. In Vegas, this is a common occurance, and no one ever gets thrown out, cut off, or gets limited as to how much they can wager. This is just another way of off shore books manipulating their customers. Steam is often wrong, and can be manipulated by the sharps. It is commonly called a "bait and switch" in the business. They put a little money down on a team in hopes of the "Steam" occuring, and then dump heavily on the opposition, when it is too late for Joe Pub to make the correction.

This is just flat out wrong. Chasing steam can be very profitable. But as Tim mentioned, if you bet anywhere near book limits, you'll get tossed in a heart-beat. Anyone betting $50/game will not get any shit for chasing steam.

However, you are right in that sometimes big players will try to induce steam by placing smallish wagers (and by small, I mean small for them- not small for the average player) on a side in hopes of creating steam and a better line. They will then pound the opposite side (the side in which they originally intended to bet on obviously) after gaining an extra point or two in value. For example, one might place a 50k wager across multiple books on Team A, wait for the line to move, then place a wager on Team B for 150k with the added value.

[Thremp]

Originally Posted by BigdaddyQH

Irish Tim is right, if you wager on off shore books and win. In Vegas, this is a common occurance, and no one ever gets thrown out, cut off, or gets limited as to how much they can wager. This is just another way of off shore books manipulating their customers. Steam is often wrong, and can be manipulated by the sharps. It is commonly called a "bait and switch" in the business. They put a little money down on a team in hopes of the "Steam" occuring, and then dump heavily on the opposition, when it is too late for Joe Pub to make the correction.

This is blatantly false. I've personally get rejected at the Wynn, which is ridiculous since I've had less than 50 tickets written in my life.

[Pensinger1]

Originally Posted by Thremp

This is blatantly false. I've personally get rejected at the Wynn, which is ridiculous since I've had less than 50 tickets written in my life.

Teach me?

[skrtelfan]

Originally Posted by Thremp

This is blatantly false. I've personally get rejected at the Wynn, which is ridiculous since I've had less than 50 tickets written in my life.

Right. People get cut off in Vegas all the time and the Wynn is probably the most notorious. I've had $500 bets in major markets raise an eyebrow, and this is the same casino where you can't even bet a number in roulette for less than $25. The sportsbook is a nice place to watch games but it baffles me why they even bother having one.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Thremp

This is blatantly false. I've personally get rejected at the Wynn, which is ridiculous since I've had less than 50 tickets written in my life.

The Wynn and Strat are "rec books". They throw out people for any/no reasons, even squares that get lucky.

Harrahs/Caesars isn't quite as bad, but they don't appreciate sharp action either. They once refused to let me bet on the Super Bowl (they hung Bears +7, and the rest of the world was at +6.5).

[Busterflywheel]

Originally Posted by IrishTim

Steam: a line moves quickly. If all the books offer an NFL game at +4, and the whole market moves to +3, it is "steaming". If you bet +4 at a slow moving book, that is "chasing steam". You'll win long-term, and get thrown out of books for doing it.

On the $$$

[soxwin]

I laughed at my buddy who placed 10 $250 wagers for a weekend of football at the WYNN and then asked for a few drink coupons. They told him it is a $300 bet minimum to get a coupon. He just bet $2500 and you are busting his chops for a drink coupon? He walked away shaking his head. Then he tried to order a drink and the waitress said w/out a coupon I can't give you a drink. WTF!!

That is why I love south point. Off the strip so it is less crowded, it is a locals book so they treat you right, and they have a few sharps there who bet heavy so they don't raise an eyebrow when you place a larger bet.

[IrishTim]

Originally Posted by Busterflywheel

On the $$$

Justin's definition, not mine. I asked him a while back via e-mail to explain how steam worked and that's essentially what he told me. He's the best resource at SBR.

[Heandog]

Originally Posted by soxwin

I laughed at my buddy who placed 10 $250 wagers for a weekend of football at the WYNN and then asked for a few drink coupons. They told him it is a $300 bet minimum to get a coupon. He just bet $2500 and you are busting his chops for a drink coupon? He walked away shaking his head. Then he tried to order a drink and the waitress said w/out a coupon I can't give you a drink. WTF!!

That is why I love south point. Off the strip so it is less crowded, it is a locals book so they treat you right, and they have a few sharps there who bet heavy so they don't raise an eyebrow when you place a larger bet.

when im in vegas I usually make it a point to go over to South Point and wager on the games its only a 10 min ride from the strip and the Hot Dogs are awesome. Great during football season actually stayed there the last 2 years right across the street and then go to the strip when we want to, going back agian this October,. only thing Sat+Sunday mornings you best get there early because it dose get quite busy at the windows

[skrtelfan]

Hilton's a great one too, both for taking large bets without blinking and being liberal with the free drinks.

[Ruifgalmeida]

Justin how do you make your bets in vegas? you must be in the blackbook of every Bookie, especialy with the fame in SBR

[jackpot269]

Very educational thread Thanks !!!!!!!!

[gambleballs]

Originally Posted by Justin7

The Wynn and Strat are "rec books". They throw out people for any/no reasons, even squares that get lucky.

Harrahs/Caesars isn't quite as bad, but they don't appreciate sharp action either. They once refused to let me bet on the Super Bowl (they hung Bears +7, and the rest of the world was at +6.5).

Add Leroys, Hardrock, and Luckys to that list. Leroys being the worst.

These books get away with gaming violations daily.. Saying "No bet" when they have Phoenix +2 when the rest of the board is at +1 or pk and then they move the line.

"Do you want it at +1??"
"Hell no, I want the price that was advertised. If I would have asked for Hornets -2 you would have wrote the ticket."
They don't care.

It's not going to get an better unless gaming steps up and sends undercover agents in to check for compliance. Because as a player, you have no choice but to let it go. Calling the gaming commission MIGHT get you the +2 bet but DEFINITELY will get you 86d.

[tltaylor89]

Originally Posted by Justin7

The Wynn and Strat are "rec books". They throw out people for any/no reasons, even squares that get lucky.

Harrahs/Caesars isn't quite as bad, but they don't appreciate sharp action either. They once refused to let me bet on the Super Bowl (they hung Bears +7, and the rest of the world was at +6.5).

Exactly

[man3645]

covers.com has a program you can download and pay monthly for that will find steam changes for you, so you can chase. I don't know if its worth anything i just know its there.

[sycoogtit]

Originally Posted by man3645

covers.com has a program you can download and pay monthly for that will find steam changes for you, so you can chase. I don't know if its worth anything i just know its there.

WTF? I watched their demo and it's the same system used by SportsInsights.com -- even the same pricing.

[fletch49]

Great stuff guys! I love the Hilton too. They seem to be the cream of the crop in my experience. I wonder is it because they get more players than the other books?

[TakeIt]

the orleans and gold coast have dime baseball lines and lots of business. i've never had a problem there.

[BigdaddyQH]

Originally Posted by fletch49

Great stuff guys! I love the Hilton too. They seem to be the cream of the crop in my experience. I wonder is it because they get more players than the other books?

The Hilton gets a ton of action in the football season because they come out with lines on Sunday Afternoon for the following week. They also give the "High Rollers" a shot at the lines before they open to the public. This opens the door for the "High Rollers" to play middles, which are normally profitable, and which the Hilton does not mind at all because they collect the vig on one of the wagers if you push a middle, and most middles are a push. Normally, if the High Rollers hit a middle, the book does not lose money, because they have collected from the losing wagers that drove the line up or down.

Now I have not been to the Wynn, so I have no idea of what their policies are. I know people that have been there, and will never go back, for a varitey of reasons. The only thing I know is that when Steve Wynn owned the Marage, he got burned big time in the Superbowl between the Chargers and 49ers. Maybe Wynn is being extra cautious now.

You have to look at the Vegas Hotel books in a different light. They are part of the casino. The Hilton is not a Strip Hotel, nor is it Downtown, so they have to specialize in something to attract customers. They do this with their book. Each Vegas Strip Hotel tries to draw a certain type of customer. Caesars caters to the "Yuppies". The 21-35 crowd looking for action, be it on the tables, or with the opposite sex. I love thier book, and they will allow "High Rollers" to do their thing, but they are not as active as the Hilton Book. The Bellagio caters to the wealthy who love the table games. Their book does not handle near the action that Caesars or the Hilton handles. The Golden Nugget is the biggest book in the Downtown area, where sports books are not nearly as popular as they are on the Strip.

So it really depends on where you are in Vegas. Most books offer the same vig, so it becomes a matter of how many different wagers they offer on a given game. Some books offer 20-30 Superbowl Prop wagers. Others offer 50-60 or more.

[TakeIt]

Originally Posted by BigdaddyQH

Most books offer the same vig...

Strip casinos are the worst. They offer 15 and 20 cent lines for baseball. You have to go offstrip to get a 10 cent line.

[RockyV]

I'm a bit confused. The basic assumption here seems to be that the big sportsbooks (e.g., Pinnacle) are right more frequently than the small ones. So whenever you see a line change in a big sports book, spend say 1% of your bankroll to pound any small sportsbook that disagree with Pinnacle. If Pinnacle is more accurate, then you'll make money on average doing this.

But if all of this is true, couldn't you automate the entire process? Write some software to automatically detect big Pinnacle line changes, and then automatically place bets in small books? You could even do this for sports that you know absolutely nothing about, and still win big (again, assuming that Pinnacle is more accurate.) Since you've automated things, you could bet on literally thousands of events a year, thus reducing your variance to almost nothing and making tons of money.

Somehow, this sounds too easy and good to be true. What is the catch?

[skrtelfan]

Originally Posted by TakeIt

Strip casinos are the worst. They offer 15 and 20 cent lines for baseball. You have to go offstrip to get a 10 cent line.

Leroy's still has a 10c line if you're stuck on the strip for whatever reason. Tropicana, Riviera, and Hooters are still Leroy's outlets although Trop will be M lines soon.

[skrtelfan]

Steam is when the Browns open +10.5 and get bet down to +9.5 This is called a "Cleveland Steamer."

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by RockyV

I'm a bit confused. The basic assumption here seems to be that the big sportsbooks (e.g., Pinnacle) are right more frequently than the small ones. So whenever you see a line change in a big sports book, spend say 1% of your bankroll to pound any small sportsbook that disagree with Pinnacle. If Pinnacle is more accurate, then you'll make money on average doing this.

But if all of this is true, couldn't you automate the entire process? Write some software to automatically detect big Pinnacle line changes, and then automatically place bets in small books? You could even do this for sports that you know absolutely nothing about, and still win big (again, assuming that Pinnacle is more accurate.) Since you've automated things, you could bet on literally thousands of events a year, thus reducing your variance to almost nothing and making tons of money.

Somehow, this sounds too easy and good to be true. What is the catch?

Quickest way for books to ban you.

Pinnacle is a sports betting operation masquerading as a book. In my opinion the pressure on other books is much alleviated by exchanges, where arbers will place their winning bets, while giving their money to Pinny on the other side of the bet.

[RockyV]

Will they ban me if I'm making small 300 dollar plays (heck, in reality for me, more like $20 plays...)?

Do they automatically check afterwards who bet immediately after Pinnacle moved, and profited? And if they are intelligent enough to do that (i.e., keep logs of Pinnacle moves themselves), why wouldn't they just update their prices to match Pinnacle, thus removing those opportunities?

EDIT: Also, what is an arber? I guess someone doing some sort of arbitrage? Isn't that a bit different...someone looking for situations where the expected return on a play is positive, and the return itself guaranteed to be at worst zero? I don't see how this helps the small books...could you illustrate with an example?

[durito]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Quickest way for books to ban you.

Pinnacle is a sports betting operation masquerading as a book.

I don't buy this at all.

They are just trying to make a small hold on high volume. They lay off at betfair and matchbook when needed.

[RockyV]

Originally Posted by durito

I don't buy this at all.

They are just trying to make a small hold on high volume. They lay off at betfair and matchbook when needed.

I think his point is that since they allow so much volume, they are a good place for people who have developed good handicapping algorithms to make money. So this means that the lines on Pinnacle are more accurate, since information is essentially "leaked" from the good algorithms to the market. That leakage is why Pinnacle can be viewed as a handicapping algorithm itself... or "sports betting operation", as he said.

At least, this is my interpretation of how things work, correct me if I'm wrong.