[The Seer]

“I’m gonna dedicate my life to this,” said Coleman on the UFC 82 pay-per-view broadcast. “The fans want to see me, I’m gonna pay my dues, and I’m gonna do the best I can. He (Lesnar) is a beast, he’s an animal, but don’t bet the house against me. I’m gonna bring something for Brock Lesnar and I’m gonna beat his butt.”


I think this is a bad match up for the 43 year old Coleman. Same style against a younger, stronger guy. However, Coleman has fought the best,legends in the sport. he's seen everything and much better fighters. It'll be interesting. We'll see in 5 months. Let's get the discussion started.

[ShamsWoof10]

Where's my boy Mark Kerr...? I thought he was making a comeback..?

[The Seer]

Originally Posted by ShamsWoof10

Where's my boy Mark Kerr...? I thought he was making a comeback..?

He used to be my favorite but pure ground and pounders have benn getting their ass handed to them in the years of late. He was the biggest disappointment. Kerr was the most athletic and strongest, not to mention ruthless, fighter I've ever seen. Too bad he couldn't get his head on straight. That bitch gf he had was a huge distraction. He woulda killed Coleman and Kerr in his prime easily.

[ShamsWoof10]

WOW that really surprises me that a girl distracted Mark... Granted I'm sure many things changed from the time you are in school but Mark had many girlfriends at once... In the 90's he had a girlfriend in every major city since he did a lot of traveling... I thought it was his mom's death that might have screwed his head up but a girlfriend can do it too I guess... I can't remember exactly when his mom died but I want to say it was 96' or was it 99'..? When did his downfall start..? I never followed his UFC carrer but I still like the guy.. He was an amazing athlete and he was nice to the young kicker

I hope he rebounds but he's probably too old now to compete with some of these guys...

I am sticking with the Mark's here and going with Coleman...

[The Seer]

Originally Posted by ShamsWoof10

WOW that really surprises me that a girl distracted Mark... Granted I'm sure many things changed from the time you are in school but Mark had many girlfriends at once... In the 90's he had a girlfriend in every major city since he did a lot of traveling... I thought it was his mom's death that might have screwed his head up but a girlfriend can do it too I guess... I can't remember exactly when his mom died but I want to say it was 96' or was it 99'..? When did his downfall start..? I never followed his UFC carrer but I still like the guy.. He was an amazing athlete and he was nice to the young kicker

I hope he rebounds but he's probably too old now to compete with some of these guys...

I am sticking with the Mark's here and going with Coleman...

Sham's there is an excellent documentary on Kerr. It chronicles his downfall with his gf (I think they got married and live in LV) and his addiction to painkillers. It's called The Smashing MAchine and it's been out a few years. It has some great footage and shows just how powerful he was.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0320512/

http://www.amazon.com/Smashing-Machi.../dp/B0000C52JT

[UncleChris]

Originally Posted by The Seer

Sham's there is an excellent documentary on Kerr. It chronicles his downfall with his gf (I think they got married and live in LV) and his addiction to painkillers.

painkiller and a LOT of roids.

[ShamsWoof10]

Originally Posted by The Seer

Sham's there is an excellent documentary on Kerr. It chronicles his downfall with his gf (I think they got married and live in LV) and his addiction to painkillers. It's called The Smashing MAchine and it's been out a few years. It has some great footage and shows just how powerful he was.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0320512/

http://www.amazon.com/Smashing-Machi.../dp/B0000C52JT

This looks really interesting... Thanks Seer I missed this post... I will check this out and I'm sure "Coach" will be interested too... I just got off the phone with him and he said he watched it once but wanted a copy.. He liked Mark... He said it's depressing watching Mark go down but it was a good documentary... I guess Mark's brother also got in trouble for tax reasons... He was our team doctor... I hear all is well now ...hope so.. he was a good guy.. I didn't know this but they have "Mary Kerr" day at the school once a year and that is cool because she was good people...

Thanks again

[slacker00]

Coleman v. Lesnar is a fantastic matchup. I can't believe I didn't think of it. The first great wrestler to become the first UFC heavyweight champ against the latest wrestler to enter the UFC. Lesnar has 50 lbs on Coleman, plus youth which I think is a decisive edge. What are the odds? 2 to 1 for Lesnar? 3 to 2 maybe?

[Thor4140]

Coleman should be out of breath in the first minute.

[UncleChris]

10 years ago Coleman would have done the same with Lesnar like Mir. This fight is just set up to give Lesnar some reputation but to be honest Lesnars vicotry will be worth a pile of shit. Coleman is doing this for the money and nothing else. Already rigged a fight für $50k.

[thegreatdiatchi]

Yea I think Coleman is in trouble here and while Lesnar is a beast I think he has a long way to go before you can call him a top fighter.

[slacker00]

Originally Posted by thegreatdiatchi

Yea I think Coleman is in trouble here and while Lesnar is a beast I think he has a long way to go before you can call him a top fighter.

Coleman is by no means in trouble. He is certainly has some obstacles to overcome as far as age and size. But Coleman certainly has experience and technique. This should be a good fight and Coleman absolutely has a good chance to win.

This should be a good fight. It should be interesting for MMA fans because it is once again a test of technique against strength. Lesnar absolutely is the stronger man, but as we saw in the Mir fight and every other fight in MMA history, size is only significant when skills are relatively equal. The only question is whether Coleman's skill advantage is enough to offset Lesnar's size advantage. The more I think about it, I think Coleman has enough to win this thing. It should be a good fight!

[Saunders FTW]

Lesnar is just too much for coleman. Stronger, bigger, and a better wrestler is Lesnar

[slacker00]

Originally Posted by Saunders FTW

Lesnar is just too much for coleman. Stronger, bigger, and a better wrestler is Lesnar

This is cage fighting, not wrestling, not body building.

Lesnar was Stronger, Bigger, and a better wrestler than Mir by a much bigger margin than he is over Coleman.

[The Seer]

Originally Posted by slacker00

This is cage fighting, not wrestling, not body building.

Lesnar was Stronger, Bigger, and a better wrestler than Mir by a much bigger margin than he is over Coleman.

Slacker, I believe the difference here is that Coleman doesn't have the submission skills of Mir. I had Mir against Lesnar but depending on what number I can get it at, I would have to take Lesnar in this one.

[slacker00]

Originally Posted by The Seer

Slacker, I believe the difference here is that Coleman doesn't have the submission skills of Mir. I had Mir against Lesnar but depending on what number I can get it at, I would have to take Lesnar in this one.

Coleman has plenty of submission skills, even if he isn't a BJJ master to the degree of Mir. 10+ years in MMA, he's seen it all and done it all. Not to mention he's fought the very best fighters in MMA during his stints in the UFC & Pride.

One thing of interest is that Mark Coleman had a more notable career as an amateur wrestler then Lesnar! This suprised the hell out of me. Mark Coleman was not only a national champion like Lesnar, but he also wrestled on the US olympic team, as well as beating legendary amateur wrestler Kurt Angle. Coleman also wrestled freestyle which is much more similar to MMA than scholastic wrestling which Lesnar did. Coleman actually has the wrestling advantage over Lesnar!

The more I research this match, the more I love Coleman.

There's only two things that bother me, it's the age and weight difference. 30 versus 43 and 225 versus 265. But, guys like Randy Couture constantly prove that these numbers don't mean much.

Backing Coleman is the only smart play in this fight, unless you're getting some crazy odds.

[The Seer]

Originally Posted by slacker00

The more I research this match, the more I love Coleman.

There's only two things that bother me, it's the age and weight difference. 30 versus 43 and 225 versus 265.
.

Slacker, I actually totally agree with what you posted and I am very familiar with Coleman's wrestling accolades and his MMA career. It is what you said in the quote that makes me lean Lesnar for the win but if the line has great value for Coleman, I'll take it.

[slacker00]

Originally Posted by The Seer

Slacker, I actually totally agree with what you posted and I am very familiar with Coleman's wrestling accolades and his MMA career. It is what you said in the quote that makes me lean Lesnar for the win but if the line has great value for Coleman, I'll take it.

How about when Randy Couture beat Tim Sylvia for the UFC heavyweight belt? The belt that Sylvia wears around like it's the only thing that means anything to him. Sylvia, the 4 time champion. By the numbers, age was 30 versus 43, weight was 265 versus 225, height was 6'8" versus 6'1". Randy went the distance and beat the bigger champion.

Now consider that Lesnar has nothing like a pedigree of a guy like Tim Sylvia. Whereas Mark Coleman actually isn't that much different than a guy like Randy Couture. Granted, Randy Couture has become legendary after moving down to 205 and beating Tito, Liddell, Belfort for that belt and then moving back up to beat Sylvia for the HW belt. But Coleman is made of the same kind of stuff, and their careers have parallelled quite a bit. Coleman just hasn't made a huge run like Couture has in his 40's. But, who knows? Maybe this match could catapult Coleman into running for the UFC heavyweight championship. Maybe that's exactly what Coleman is hoping, as if he needs a little extra motivation against a huge name like Lesnar that I'm sure every MMA guy takes as a little insulting that he can come in and get so much exposure, clout & money without a lick of experience or success in MMA. Just some things to think about.

[The Seer]

Originally Posted by slacker00

How about when Randy Couture beat Tim Sylvia for the UFC heavyweight belt? The belt that Sylvia wears around like it's the only thing that means anything to him. Sylvia, the 4 time champion. By the numbers, age was 30 versus 43, weight was 265 versus 225, height was 6'8" versus 6'1". Randy went the distance and beat the bigger champion.

Now consider that Lesnar has nothing like a pedigree of a guy like Tim Sylvia. Whereas Mark Coleman actually isn't that much different than a guy like Randy Couture. Granted, Randy Couture has become legendary after moving down to 205 and beating Tito, Liddell, Belfort for that belt and then moving back up to beat Sylvia for the HW belt. But Coleman is made of the same kind of stuff, and their careers have parallelled quite a bit. Coleman just hasn't made a huge run like Couture has in his 40's. But, who knows? Maybe this match could catapult Coleman into running for the UFC heavyweight championship. Maybe that's exactly what Coleman is hoping, as if he needs a little extra motivation against a huge name like Lesnar that I'm sure every MMA guy takes as a little insulting that he can come in and get so much exposure, clout & money without a lick of experience or success in MMA. Just some things to think about.

I hope Coleman does win and goes out of the UFC with the belt. I do think that Sylvia would have trouble with any elite wrestling oriented fighter or sub guy like Nog. He is a stand up guy and pretty uncomfortable on the ground and his back especially. It still amazes me that he beat Arvloski. I though arv would have gotten him down and that would be the end. However, Arv isn't as controlling on the ground as a Couture or Coleman. Damn, I wish Kerr could come back and make a run. He had more potential than any of them just too many distractions.

[slacker00]

Arlovski did beat Sylvia in UFC 51. Arlovski got him in a leg lock on the ground.

Arloski is a wierd fighter. He can be really good or really average depending on the fight. I think that goes for most "Sambo" style fighters. For some reason, some of their moves are "all or nothing" and they can get into trouble if the move doesn't work.

I agree that Sylvia has a limited ground game against the best ground fighters. But you've got to admit that he's got a punchers chance against the best UFC fighters if he can keep it on the feet at all. I think Couture kinda wrote the book on how to exploit his weakness, though.

[The Seer]

Originally Posted by slacker00

Arlovski did beat Sylvia in UFC 51. Arlovski got him in a leg lock on the ground.

Arloski is a wierd fighter. He can be really good or really average depending on the fight. I think that goes for most "Sambo" style fighters. For some reason, some of their moves are "all or nothing" and they can get into trouble if the move doesn't work.

I agree that Sylvia has a limited ground game against the best ground fighters. But you've got to admit that he's got a punchers chance against the best UFC fighters if he can keep it on the feet at all. I think Couture kinda wrote the book on how to exploit his weakness, though.

I saw 51 but he lost to him in 59 and 61.

[JJOdin]

Originally Posted by slacker00

Coleman has plenty of submission skills, even if he isn't a BJJ master to the degree of Mir. 10+ years in MMA, he's seen it all and done it all. Not to mention he's fought the very best fighters in MMA during his stints in the UFC & Pride.

One thing of interest is that Mark Coleman had a more notable career as an amateur wrestler then Lesnar! This suprised the hell out of me. Mark Coleman was not only a national champion like Lesnar, but he also wrestled on the US olympic team, as well as beating legendary amateur wrestler Kurt Angle. Coleman also wrestled freestyle which is much more similar to MMA than scholastic wrestling which Lesnar did. Coleman actually has the wrestling advantage over Lesnar!

The more I research this match, the more I love Coleman.

There's only two things that bother me, it's the age and weight difference. 30 versus 43 and 225 versus 265. But, guys like Randy Couture constantly prove that these numbers don't mean much.

Backing Coleman is the only smart play in this fight, unless you're getting some crazy odds.

Coleman, as you said, does have a great wrestling history and has a lot more MMA experience, as well. He also has heart.

The size goes heavily in Lesnar's favor, as does youth. But again, Lesnar has only been in an MMA cage once and lost (the other time it was a ring).

This is a very interesting fight. In fact, the UFC couldn't have put Coleman up against a more interesting adversary.

[slacker00]

Mark Coleman also trains and has trained with the best wrestlers that ever entered into MMA. Randleman, Kerr, Van Arsdale, etc. Coleman knows what it's like to go against wrestling-type MMA fighters day in and day out in practice, not to mention on fight night. Plus, Coleman has been doing it for years and years. Nothing Lesnar brings is going to be anything that Coleman hasn't seen hundreds and hundreds of times in his sleep. Lesnar has the size and youth, but the beauty of MMA is that these things can be nullified by experience and technique. Finally, Lesnar is taking on yet another former UFC heavyweight champ, albeit it was a coon's age ago. I just don't think Lesnar can suprise Coleman with anything, much less outwork or outmuscle Coleman. Lesnar is up against yet another huge test, but I just don't think he can pass it. I think Coleman will basically let Lesnar wear himself out for the first couple minutes, neutralizing whatever attack, then counterattack to get Lesnar in a compromised position or situation. Technique will win this fight.

[slacker00]

Pinny has odds up: Lesnar -300, Coleman +270.

This is an easier bet than Lesnar-Mir, IMO. Everyone who reads this should put a unit play on Coleman.

[The Kimura]

Coleman is over the hill...give me coleman from 4 or 5 years ago and Ill take him but no way in hell I take him in this spot. lesnar will knock coleman out,1st rnd.

[UncleChris]

Originally Posted by slacker00

Pinny has odds up: Lesnar -300, Coleman +270.

This is an easier bet than Lesnar-Mir, IMO. Everyone who reads this should put a unit play on Coleman.

Even if Coleman could win this fight he would not. You can make good money promoting Lesnar for a few more fights. But what is the value of old man Coleman winning this fight...nothing.

For the case Lesnar is not good enough beating an old man I will hope Coleman will not fix the fight so obviously like he did it here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKQOAJbeQ

[slacker00]

I doubt this fight will be fixed. That fight was a decade ago in Japan, when MMA was still struggling. Now MMA is becoming mainstream, and it would really ruin the sport if a high profile fight like this came out as being fixed. Especially since this fight is happening in the UFC, they've got a lot to lose and much more to gain as the sport continues to grow. There will be too much scrutiny for this fight to be fixed.

Coleman does have a lot to gain. As this sport grows, the money is really growing as well. It's all about building a name. If Coleman can beat a big name like Lesnar, he gets back into the picture, getting a chance at bigger fights and bigger money. This is his lottery ticket. I don't think he'll take a dive for 50 grand or even 500 grand. He's got a lot more to gain by flat out winning.

[The Seer]

Good points slacker. I'm not so sure that other fight was fixed either. Coleman has shown some lapse of judgement and made simple mistakes in some of his fights.

[barkus]

Originally Posted by The Seer

Good points slacker. I'm not so sure that other fight was fixed either. Coleman has shown some lapse of judgement and made simple mistakes in some of his fights.

If by lapse of judgement you mean taking pay-offs to lose then I agree. This fight is the most blatant example of a fixed MMA fight. Takada sucked so bad Coleman couldn't even make it look like a legit loss. But I'm not sure if Takada was actually in on the work.

[Saunders FTW]

Originally Posted by UncleChris

painkiller and a LOT of roids.

Whole lot of roids

[Saunders FTW]

Originally Posted by thegreatdiatchi

Yea I think Coleman is in trouble here and while Lesnar is a beast I think he has a long way to go before you can call him a top fighter.

i agree, he has a lot of raw talent tho

[Saunders FTW]

Originally Posted by slacker00

I doubt this fight will be fixed. That fight was a decade ago in Japan, when MMA was still struggling. Now MMA is becoming mainstream, and it would really ruin the sport if a high profile fight like this came out as being fixed. Especially since this fight is happening in the UFC, they've got a lot to lose and much more to gain as the sport continues to grow. There will be too much scrutiny for this fight to be fixed.

Coleman does have a lot to gain. As this sport grows, the money is really growing as well. It's all about building a name. If Coleman can beat a big name like Lesnar, he gets back into the picture, getting a chance at bigger fights and bigger money. This is his lottery ticket. I don't think he'll take a dive for 50 grand or even 500 grand. He's got a lot more to gain by flat out winning.

very good points, but if hes only in for one quick pay day and not the fighitng, well, i just hate coleman

[barkus]

Lesnar's a great value at these odds in my opinion. Coleman's bread and butter in every fight he's ever been in is to get the takedown via superior wrestling and GnP. This will be nearly impossible to do against Lesnar. Both fighters are former NCAA champs but the wrestling pedigree edge should go to Coleman since he also wrestled in the Olympics. However, Lesnar's a much bigger (he actually has to cut to get to 265, while Coleman last fought at 224) and a much more athletic fighter. He should be able to outwrestle and impose his will on Coleman. If Lesnar does get Coleman on his back, Coleman will be doomed. I think Coleman's best chance of victory would be to stuff Lesnar's takedowns (if he can) and take his chances standing.

Some other random factors about why I think Coleman's a risky bet:

-He's 43 and his body has undergone a lot of wear and tear
-Not known for having good gameplans (1 dimentional fighters usually aren't)
-Has a history of suspect cardio
-Has weak stand up
-not a sub threat
-will have to fight clean. I don't want to accuse him of juicing, but he never had to worry about tests in his PRIDE/early UFC days... and he trained with Hammer House, most of his career so maybe he did maybe he didn't, but a lot of PRIDE vets have come to the UFC a lot smaller,(circumstantial evidence, but I think it's worth noting).
-He has plenty of experience but has not evolved as a fighter.

I would be surprised Coleman even makes a fight of this. But I have already bet big on Lesner, so if Coleman wins I'll be eating crow.

[slacker00]

Originally Posted by barkus

Lesnar's a great value at these odds in my opinion. Coleman's bread and butter in every fight he's ever been in is to get the takedown via superior wrestling and GnP. This will be nearly impossible to do against Lesnar. Both fighters are former NCAA champs but the wrestling pedigree edge should go to Coleman since he also wrestled in the Olympics. However, Lesnar's a much bigger (he actually has to cut to get to 265, while Coleman last fought at 224) and a much more athletic fighter. He should be able to outwrestle and impose his will on Coleman. If Lesnar does get Coleman on his back, Coleman will be doomed. I think Coleman's best chance of victory would be to stuff Lesnar's takedowns (if he can) and take his chances standing.

Some other random factors about why I think Coleman's a risky bet:

-He's 43 and his body has undergone a lot of wear and tear
-Not known for having good gameplans (1 dimentional fighters usually aren't)
-Has a history of suspect cardio
-Has weak stand up
-not a sub threat
-will have to fight clean. I don't want to accuse him of juicing, but he never had to worry about tests in his PRIDE/early UFC days... and he trained with Hammer House, most of his career so maybe he did maybe he didn't, but a lot of PRIDE vets have come to the UFC a lot smaller,(circumstantial evidence, but I think it's worth noting).
-He has plenty of experience but has not evolved as a fighter.

I would be surprised Coleman even makes a fight of this. But I have already bet big on Lesner, so if Coleman wins I'll be eating crow.

Great writeup.

I didn't consider the steroids issue. I'm sure it's a very relevant angle in this sport. I just don't know who's juicing and who isn't. But, I can't believe Lesnar never juiced. He looks like the typical pro wrestling steroid kid.

[Saunders FTW]

Originally Posted by slacker00

Great writeup.

I didn't consider the steroids issue. I'm sure it's a very relevant angle in this sport. I just don't know who's juicing and who isn't. But, I can't believe Lesnar never juiced. He looks like the typical pro wrestling steroid kid.

i guarantee you atleast 80 percent of ufc fighters juice